First shop: to Festool or not to Festool

[Alexander Prikhodko]

I am about 6 months away from buying my first home, and I figured that now would be a good time to start looking for some tools that I will inevitably need for home renovation and basic furniture construction. The thinking process, is that since I do not need these tools right away, I can take my time and look for deals on Craigslist and Fleabay. Here is my dilemma, chances are that whatever house I end-up buying I will not have a lot of space for a dedicated shop.

The garage will most likely be sized for a single car, the basement will be used for a home theater; so that leaves me with a single, bedroom-sized room for a shop. I was thinking that the Festool MFT3, TS55, and the Bosch 4100 table saw would be a good alternative to a full-size cabinet saw and would work well in a small space. My goal is to be equipped to build some basic furniture and cabinets.

I have an opportunity to purchase a used MFT3 for $400. Should I pull the trigger? Are there any big deficiencies with my planned approach for setting up a small shop?

Thanks in advance

[Neil Brooks]

These are such personal decisions ... it's really hard to say.

My thoughts: if you buy the Festool options that you're considering, you'll have them for life, and -- likely -- with no regrets.

As a Bosch 4100 owner, though, I keep *itching* to get a cabinet saw -- much more out of want than need. My 4100 works well, cuts accurately, and makes its way through 8/4 hard maple.

But I like the idea of more power, a top-of-the-line fence, and the enhanced dust collection that comes with a legit cabinet saw.

And ... with the time that you DO have ... you could buy a used cabinet saw, really well, by watching CraigsList, or other sources for used.

Buy it once. Buy it right.

Nothing WRONG with the Bosch, but ... it's a Toyota Camry, not a Mercedes sedan

[Alexander Prikhodko]

I would love to buy a cabinet saw. Especially with all of the glowing reviews that SawStop seems to be getting. My issue is space, which I probably will not have, and a cabinet saw takes up quite a bit of it.

[Matt Day]

A cabinet saw really doesn't take up much of a footprint - 27" deep x 30" or so wide + however big you want it. Put it on a mobile base, add some foldable extension wings, make your shelves/workbenches the same height as the TS and use them as outfeed supports, use it as a general purpose table/workbench like I do, etc. My shop is probably 15'x20' at the most with a structural column in the middle of it and my cabinet saw works just fine there. I break down sheet goods with a circular saw.

[William Nimmo]

My basement is half home theater and half woodshop. About 500 square ft each. Funny, when I am in the woodshop with all my Festools, I wish I didnt do the home theater thing. But then when I am using my theater I don't know what I would do without it. Except maybe get stuck watching DVR'd Opra with the wife upstairs.
Go slow, but go with the best. You will buy once and never look back.

[Neil Brooks]

Yeah. They do have a bigger footprint. That's for sure. They're also a bear to wrestle down steps, on your back

One thing to consider, though, is that it isn't ALL "incremental" space.

Meaning: you'll almost certainly need a work/assembly surface. With a cabinet saw, you can build the saw INTO that infeed/outfeed table, and -- when not cutting -- use THAT surface as your workbench.

Many do.

I made a certain amount of peace with the notion that ... at some point ... my 4100 will either become a $$ loss, relative to what I paid for it, or ... a dedicated saw that always sports a dado stack -- a fairly nice luxury, and NOT beyond the 4100s abilities.

If your space options change, later, you could always make comparable decisions. The 4100 IS a very good saw -- within its limitations.

Good luck !

[Neil Brooks]

Ah.

I see the turbines of True Genius were all spinning, simultaneously

Lots of similar answers, all at once !

[Adam Shapiro]

I have the 4100 and the ts55. Like Neil, I've been able to use them to build plenty of stuff around the house but I keep longing for a cabinet saw sized table top, fence, dust collection, etc. The 4100 has plenty of power for what I need it for, but the small table and contractor fence means you have to find work arounds. That's fine, but work arounds take more time than doing something with the right tool in the first place. While your considering the size of a cabinet or hybrid saw vs the 4100, keep in mind that in order to really use the Bosch for a lot of things, you've got to set up side supports and an outfeed table. Since I've also got a really small area for a basement shop, I built a workbench around mine with a router table in it. If I'd started with a cabinet saw, I could've designed something that was essentially the same size and much more functional. That said, I don't know if the parallel guide set and MFT could completely replace the need for a table saw or not, I don't use them.

One other thing to keep in mind, which might negate everything I said above. I occasionally need to bring my 4100 outside to make a cut because the workpieces can't fit into my basement space. If you'll have a similar issue, than you may need to buy a portable saw regardless.

[Derek Gilmer]

I'd suggest getting the track saw and trying to go with out the table saw for awhile. I've read some interesting articles about going to a no tablesaw work shop lately. Having a full size cabinet saw I love, if I was starting over I think I'd take the money for it and sit on it for a bit. I'd guess the festool saw + hand saw could get a lot of what you need done. Maybe a bandsaw if you anticipate doing a lot of ripping.

[Paul Johnstone]

If you have time, watch CL for a used contractor or hybrid saw.. I had a portable table saw when I started (although not as nice as the Bosch) and it is really a night and day difference.
As others said, put it on a mobile base and push it to a corner. I have some small filing cabinets under mine for storage.
On warm days, you can open the garage door to have more infeed/outfeed space to use it.

I guess it's possible to do everything with a tracksaw and MFT, but there's some tasks that would be a huge PITA to do that way (both repetitively and accurately).

On the plus side though, Festool stuff really holds it's value on resale. If you bought it and decided it was not for you, you could probably recover at least 85% of your purchase cost (and least on the saw, don't know about the MFT).

[Burt Alcantara]

Forget the home theater. Buy a couple of iPhones and headphones and build a shop. Once you start you'll be hooked. You'll spend much more time in the shop then the home theater. Face it, what's on TV -- nothing. What movies are there -- garbage. So, with the shop, you can make beautiful things for you, your family, friends and who knows, maybe you'll sell stuff and make piles of dough.

Or, maybe not.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I had a Bosch 4000 with gravity rise stand for several years and it served me well. Although I could dial everything perfect, it wouldn't hold its settings very long and I'd have to adjust the measurement marker, and things like that. Got this saw and stand at Costco for $325 when it was on closeout.

Then I got a cabinet saw which was a grizzly 1023SLX for $400 from craigslist.

The difference was night and day. The motor on the grizzly just effortlessly cuts compared to the bosch. In addition, the noise level and vibrations are greatly reduced. The adjustments are just more robust and easier to make. Although I only cut with a home made splitter it just feels safer than the bosch. I havn't touched the bosch since I got the grizzly.

As for Festool. I have a few porter cable sanders (belt, detail, DA) and also a festool ETS 150 and Rotex 150. The festool sanders don't sand any better IMO, they just have less vibration and seem stronger. The ETS 150 is fairly quiet while the Rotex is pretty loud. Even the festool Rubin and Brilliant sand paper doesn't seem to last any longer than the Norton sand paper I use on my porter cable sanders. Hook up a festool vac to the porter cable sanders and dust reduction will be pretty much the same. The rotex needs some getting used to as it is pretty powerful and will wander if not controlled properly. I like the ETS 150 better than the rotex just because it's easier to turn on/off, control, lighter, and it's $200 cheaper to boot.

The only festool I see as being worth every penny is the track saw, the TS55. I can cut angles or irregular pieces and do things I couldn't do on a table saw. It's not exactly used frequently if you have a tablesaw, but I admit that it's handy to have for working with large sheet goods and crosscutting anything big or complex.

If I was in your shoes I would consider the Festool TS55 and a shop vac.
I would shop on CL for a cabinet saw or get a new grizzly. The extension tables can be your work table.
Instead of the MFT, just use sawhorses and sheets of wood. I got the Stanley Fatmax sawhorses and they make great work tables and save you money.
Get BORG brand sanders, drills, routers, etc. No need to go festool unless you want all the extra features. For example, the router can go on the track guide and has decent dust collection and fine adjustment of bit depth.

[Russell Smallwood]

If I were going to set up a new shop in a confined space I would take a very very hard look at a good combo machine.

Space, along with a good cabinet maker's bench are the two most under-appreciated, under-discussed things in the workshop.

I saw a Robland X31 (or something) in the local craig's list for $1300.

I have no idea what condition it was in, but you never know. I'm sure there are a lot of them out there gathering dust in people's basements who thought they might like to take up the hobby but decided they'd rather keep their fingers.

Just sayin'

[Matthew Hills]

I'm trying to figure out how you have money if you're about to buy a new home.
I'd definitely recommend cash in reserve for all the unexpected things that can happen.

Are you doing home-improvement type projects or furniture?

Home-improvement tools tend to vary a lot depending on the project. Pneumatic nailer + miter saw was really helpful for putting in moulding in one wing of our place. Jigsaw helpful for some cutouts for plumbing cleanouts. Sawzall good for cutting out old outlet boxes when I wanted to put in a larger box and bring in grounds, etc.

The Festool tracksaw is very nice for working on sheet goods. Even just pulled it out for a chicken coop recently.
If you're going to be doing solid wood with the table saw, are you planning on jointer+planer?

Regardless of which you're doing, do get good dust mask + filter...
Oh, and cordless drill. used everywhere.

Matt

[Dan Karachio]

Hi Alexander. Congratulations on the new home! Like you, buying a house generated a lot of tool purchases which eventually evolved into furniture making. You are going to have fun! Just make all kinds of things for your wife and the hobby will be encouraged! If you don't have a wife, then (in terms of the hobby) you are golden.

I have had or have all three things you are thinking about - the MFT, TS 75 (okay, not 55, but close enough) and the Bosch 4100 table saw. I'm not sure where to start. If you get the Bosch and get into furniture making you will soon be selling it and getting a contractor or cabinet saw. It's a great tool for a contractor on a construction site, but despite what the reviews say, it just isn't up to all the cuts you will need to make. I strongly recommend a big no on this one.

I love the heck out of my MFT/3, but now that I am doing less cabinet/built in projects and more furniture projects I rarely use my MFT with TS 75. I find that with my contractor saw (32" rip) and home made sleds I can more quickly and just as accurately cut sheet goods. I have other Festool products and I use the heck out of them - OF 1400 router, CT 22 dust extractor, 150/3 sander and a Domino. If you had to take away any of my Festools, the TS 75 would be the first to go without hesitation. It is amazing, it is super cool, it is designed like a space shop, but it just doesn't fit my needs and other tools do. You may be totally different, but I am just stating my experience. I say put the money into a good table saw. Sure they take up space, but they are the most useful and used space in almost any shop. If you do need to move it around, mobile bases solve this, but like others said, it will be the center of your shop. There are many good books/articles on small shops. Search amazon or look at Fine Woodworking for some articles ($14 or so online membership to 100000000s of articles and videos).

Here is one hard lesson learned from me. For both home ownership and wood working I think an essential tool is a good compound slider miter saw. I sort of skimped on a 12" non sliding compound Hitachi and even though I use it all the time and have for 5-6 years years, I absolutely hate it. Fence and table is not perfect, cuts are not perfect, dust collection is a joke. If I could go back I'd get a nice slider, maybe the new Bosch or the Makita. I should just bite the bullet, but I end up buying tools I don't have vs replacing this one. I may just bite the bullet and get the Kapex some day and be done with it forever.

The MFT is tough. I stand in front of it for almost everything. It is an outfeed for my table saw and I sand on it, route on it, drill on it, assemble on it, cover it in plastic and finish on it. I even draw and write on it. I have all the clamps and other things and you can do almost anything with it. However, it is not sturdy and I have a more traditional bench that I use for all handwork. If you have room for two benches, then you will love it, but as your only bench... I'm not sure. $400 is about $200 off, but do they give you any clamps? They are not cheap. I'm sorry, I just don't see it as essential or required for starting out - not it or the TS 55. The two can't replace a table saw (think dados and tenons and miters...) and if you have a table saw it just isn't that useful. However, if you can spare the money and can buy other tools, I say spring for the MFT for $400. It is that cool.

Sorry I am rambling here, but I went through this and made so many mistakes on what I bought. I was seduced by Festool and just had to have the TS 75, MFT..., but the pair is far from essential. If you have the Festool bug (easy enough), buy their other products! In retrospect, I think all those "essential shop tools" articles are right on target. Table saw, miter saw, planer, jointer, band saw. Build a bench, buy some nice hand tools, get a good sander and dust collector and you will be rocking.

Finally, while others may work well with mobile tools that can be wheeled out when needed, this drove me nuts and I felt it got in the way of being productive when I had limited time to wood work. It took a long time, but I figured out a fixed layout in my small shop (500-600 square feet) where I can use any tool instantly. Miter saw, drill press, jointer, planer, bandsaw, table saw and yes, even the TS 75.

Oh, of course any home owner MUST have a good cordless drill, impact driver and a ladder.