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Thread: Hot Water Tank / Woodworking (1 of 2)

  1. #1

    Wink Hot Water Tank / Woodworking (1 of 2)

    Hot Water Tank / Woodworking (1 of 2)

    .... Just about the time when you think you have some free time to spend in the shop along comes something else that will ensure that you will NOT spend time the way you would like. Life tends to be like that for some reason or another, most of the time, it seems. About two weeks ago my wife said the hot water ran out too soon. So being the good husband that I am I checked it out and sure enough she was right! So I did some investigating and found that in the area in which we live there's a problem with lime deposits. In our other house it was acid water and rust which I eventually got under control. I also learned, it is usually the bottom element that becomes encrusted with lime and becomes hot and the water can't get around it to cool it down, thereby heating the water at the same time, and eventually explodes the element from all the heat, and it doesn't work anymore.


    .... So yesterday afternoon was the day to replace the element. First thing I did was to open the lower element door and put my volt meter across the two terminals of the element and sure enough I had 241 volts, which told me I had power at the element (check point #1). After this I turned off the power at the breaker of the main electric box. Then I checked again with the meter to make SURE there was no power across those terminals, and it read “0” (check point #2).


    .... I had decided some time ago that if I ever had to fix or replace this hot water tank that I was going to place a catch pan under it with an outlet so if a leak does occur the water will have a path to the drain rather than all over the cellar floor. I picked one up at LOWES.


    .... Next, I turned off the water at the holding tank from the well and drained the hot water tank. Disconnected both the hot and cold copper lines running to the tank. Removed the three bricks from under the empty tank and wiped the floor clean with a rag. Placed the new catch pan, and the bricks in the pan, in position. Mounted the hot water heater on the bricks in the proper alignment also. Note: in reattaching the one copper pipe connection, whoever installed it had it so tight I had to cut the floor joist with a Sawzall just to give me a little stress relief so I could make the reconnection of the piping, (see pics) tighten everything up and proceed to the element.


    .... Removed the lower element with a 1 ½ inch socket on a ¾” drive ratchet. A bit difficult getting it out but I got it all, I had to be careful (see pic) of the remains. Connected approx one inch clear diameter short, two feet, hose to the extension of the wet / dry vacuum and for the next (about) three hours removed lime from the bottom of the hot water tank through the 1 ½ inch element hole in the side of the tank, turning on the water,on occasion, so as to pick it all up with the vacuum. If you can imagine this: about a 14 inch diameter 6-8 inches high of nothing but lime is what came out of that tank.


    ... From past hot water tanks in my life I had removed and saved elements for possible future use in a pinch. Picked one of the two elements on the left side (see pic) and reinstalled it. Connected the element electrically, turned off the drain from the tank, filled the tank with water then turned on the breaker. Put the volt meter on bottom element terminals again and the meter read ZERO. To my surprise, I immediately checked my meter and found it was responding correctly. Puzzled by this, I talked to a fellow I know and he explained that the bottom element does NOT come on until the top element has heated the top half of the tank up to temperature then the bottom element cuts in and heats the bottom half of the tank and apparently it goes back and forth until there is a call for hot water. I did take notice, on the label, on the side of the hot water tank, it said: top element 4500 watts, bottom element 4500 watts, total 4500 watts. When I saw the total I thought it strange that the total was only 4500 watts and not 9000 watts and as you can see I made a mental note of it only to discover later why.


    .... So anyway this is were my shop time went, thanks for reading .


    Boyd
    .
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Every man’s work is always a portrait of himself.

  2. #2
    Hot Water Tank / Woodworking (2 of 2)


    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Gathwright
    Hot Water Tank / Woodworking (1 of 2)

    .... Just about the time when you think you have some free time to spend in the shop along comes something else that will ensure that you will NOT spend time the way you would like. Life tends to be like that for some reason or another, most of the time, it seems. About two weeks ago my wife said the hot water ran out too soon. So being the good husband that I am I checked it out and sure enough she was right! So I did some investigating and found that in the area in which we live there's a problem with lime deposits. In our other house it was acid water and rust which I eventually got under control. I also learned, it is usually the bottom element that becomes encrusted with lime and becomes hot and the water can't get around it to cool it down, thereby heating the water at the same time, and eventually explodes the element from all the heat, and it doesn't work anymore.


    .... So yesterday afternoon was the day to replace the element. First thing I did was to open the lower element door and put my volt meter across the two terminals of the element and sure enough I had 241 volts, which told me I had power at the element (check point #1). After this I turned off the power at the breaker of the main electric box. Then I checked again with the meter to make SURE there was no power across those terminals, and it read “0” (check point #2).


    .... I had decided some time ago that if I ever had to fix or replace this hot water tank that I was going to place a catch pan under it with an outlet so if a leak does occur the water will have a path to the drain rather than all over the cellar floor. I picked one up at LOWES.


    .... Next, I turned off the water at the holding tank from the well and drained the hot water tank. Disconnected both the hot and cold copper lines running to the tank. Removed the three bricks from under the empty tank and wiped the floor clean with a rag. Placed the new catch pan, and the bricks in the pan, in position. Mounted the hot water heater on the bricks in the proper alignment also. Note: in reattaching the one copper pipe connection, whoever installed it had it so tight I had to cut the floor joist with a Sawzall just to give me a little stress relief so I could make the reconnection of the piping, (see pics) tighten everything up and proceed to the element.


    .... Removed the lower element with a 1 ½ inch socket on a ¾” drive ratchet. A bit difficult getting it out but I got it all, I had to be careful (see pic) of the remains. Connected approx one inch clear diameter short, two feet, hose to the extension of the wet / dry vacuum and for the next (about) three hours removed lime from the bottom of the hot water tank through the 1 ½ inch element hole in the side of the tank, turning on the water,on occasion, so as to pick it all up with the vacuum. If you can imagine this: about a 14 inch diameter 6-8 inches high of nothing but lime is what came out of that tank.


    ... From past hot water tanks in my life I had removed and saved elements for possible future use in a pinch. Picked one of the two elements on the left side (see pic) and reinstalled it. Connected the element electrically, turned off the drain from the tank, filled the tank with water then turned on the breaker. Put the volt meter on bottom element terminals again and the meter read ZERO. To my surprise, I immediately checked my meter and found it was responding correctly. Puzzled by this, I talked to a fellow I know and he explained that the bottom element does NOT come on until the top element has heated the top half of the tank up to temperature then the bottom element cuts in and heats the bottom half of the tank and apparently it goes back and forth until there is a call for hot water. I did take notice, on the label, on the side of the hot water tank, it said: top element 4500 watts, bottom element 4500 watts, total 4500 watts. When I saw the total I thought it strange that the total was only 4500 watts and not 9000 watts and as you can see I made a mental note of it only to discover later why.


    .... So anyway this is were my shop time went, thanks for reading .


    Boyd
    .
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Every man’s work is always a portrait of himself.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Water Park Capital of the World
    Posts
    2,219
    In the last picture I don't see a hose connected to the drain pan. Is that an oversight or did you just take the picture before you installed the hose?
    Creeker Visits. They're the best.

  4. #4

    Wink

    Hi Karl,

    .... No it was not an oversight, I have not decided whether or not to run a flexable hose or run a hard line or a combination of both. The other point is that the size of the fitting coming off the pan, is larger than most, and I need to take that into considerstion .

    Boyd
    .


    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Laustrup
    In the last picture I don't see a hose connected to the drain pan. Is that an oversight or did you just take the picture before you installed the hose?
    Every man’s work is always a portrait of himself.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    South Windsor, CT
    Posts
    3,304
    Boyd,

    FYI, notching a floor joist like that effectively reduces the load carrying capacity of the joist to the depth of your cut. Also, straight cuts like that tend to promote a radiating split. That notch is fairly close to the end of the run, so it's not as bad as mid space. Still, for future reference, you should avoid cutting the top and bottom of a joist.

    Other than that - "fun" project!

    Rob

  6. #6
    Back when we had electric tanks, have gas now, I had made a spoon of sorts to clean the tank out. I took a piece of 1/8 x 1/2 flat iron, about 16-18" long, bent one end to 90 degrees, hammered that end into a spoon end, then sat there and scraped crud out for a 1/2 hour or so. That was fun. Lol


  7. #7

    Smile

    Rob,

    .... Don't really think I have a problem but I will place two 5/16” lag bolts on both sides of the notch.

    .... Thanks for pointing that out .


    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Russell
    Boyd,

    FYI, notching a floor joist like that effectively reduces the load carrying capacity of the joist to the depth of your cut. Also, straight cuts like that tend to promote a radiating split. That notch is fairly close to the end of the run, so it's not as bad as mid space. Still, for future reference, you should avoid cutting the top and bottom of a joist.

    Other than that - "fun" project!

    Rob
    Every man’s work is always a portrait of himself.

  8. #8

    Thumbs up

    Hi Steve,

    .... Good to hear from you. While I was pushing and pulling that two or so feet of hose back and forth I was giving some sort of scrapper some real thought. At one point I took part of the broken element, see pic, and formed it into a quarter circle and shoved it up the end of that clear piece of hose that was attached to the extension of the vac. This helped me get the debris closest to just inside the hole. Of course, the next time I need something like this will most likely be ten years or so from now. Your suggestion won't go unconsidered the next time.

    .... Thanks for the shout .


    Boyd
    .


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Clardy
    Back when we had electric tanks, have gas now, I had made a spoon of sorts to clean the tank out. I took a piece of 1/8 x 1/2 flat iron, about 16-18" long, bent one end to 90 degrees, hammered that end into a spoon end, then sat there and scraped crud out for a 1/2 hour or so. That was fun. Lol
    Every man’s work is always a portrait of himself.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    South Windsor, CT
    Posts
    3,304
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Gathwright

    ... but I will place two 5/16” lag bolts on both sides of the notch.
    If you were really going to do some, a strap that bridged the bottom of the joist would be more effective.

    I wouldn't do anything - just be aware of this for future situations.

  10. #10

    Smile

    Hello Karl,
    .... Concerning the (hose connection to the drain pan) that we spoke of a while back, I could not give you a good answer at that time. Well, I can give you a good answer now since I am now revisiting the connections around that area again. Didn't want you to think I “forgot or something” .

    .... I could NOT get a hard line fitting (PVC) larger than 1/2” and 3/4” to fit my circumstances so I had to go with high pressure reinforced hose that fit and was large enough but not too large. The white connection coming off the pan (see pics) is 1 1/4”I.D. The O.D. of the hose is 1 1/4” so that along with PVC to seal it made a good connection. The O.D. Of 3/4” PVC fitting is 1 1/16” which made for an excellent tight fit with the 1” I.D. hose and to secure all of that, I used screw clamps over the hose to be sure. The green hose that goes into the right angle 3/4” PVC fitting is just PVCed in place. See the pics.

    Hi Karl,

    .... No it was not an oversight, I have not decided whether or not to run a flexable hose or run a hard line or a combination of both. The other point is that the size of the fitting coming off the pan, is larger than most, and I need to take that into considerstion .

    Boyd
    .

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Karl Laustrup
    In the last picture I don't see a hose connected to the drain pan. Is that an oversight or did you just take the picture before you installed the hose?


    .
    Last edited by Boyd Gathwright; 02-02-2007 at 7:26 PM.
    Every man’s work is always a portrait of himself.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Mpls, Minn
    Posts
    2,882
    Not sure if it'd work in your case, but I've seen plumbers use a deliming solution and flush the water heater, might be a bit late with this little tidbit though...
    Chances are the two elements never come on at the same time, they can be wired in a couple of ways, but usually the upper element comes on, comes up to set temp, shuts off and then the bottom one comes on, so rating for 4500 watts total would make sense.

    Al

  12. #12

    Exclamation

    ____Correction____

    .... Oops..., Apparently in my haste to post I got my acronyms confused with my most recent posting, PVC and RTV. In: “with PVC to seal it made a good connection. “ the PVC should have been RTV, To: “with RTV to seal it made a good connection.” and right angle 3/4” PVC fitting is just PVCed in place.” Should have been RTV, To: right angle 3/4” PVC fitting is just RTVed in place. I also highlighted (Bolded) them in the quoted paragraph as well, see below.
    .... There is a time limit on how long you have to make corrections (Edit) after you post now. Saw the error last evening when checking for updated post comments. I am a bit surprised that one of the HAWKEYES here on SCM didn't spot or pick this up before me !!


    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd Gathwright
    Hello Karl,
    .... Concerning the (hose connection to the drain pan) that we spoke of a while back, I could not give you a good answer at that time. Well, I can give you a good answer now since I am now revisiting the connections around that area again. Didn't want you to think I “forgot or something” .

    .... I could NOT get a hard line fitting (PVC) larger than 1/2” and 3/4” to fit my circumstances so I had to go with high pressure reinforced hose that fit and was large enough but not too large. The white connection coming off the pan (see pics) is 1 1/4”I.D. The O.D. of the hose is 1 1/4” so that along with RTV to seal it made a good connection. The O.D. Of 3/4” PVC fitting is 1 1/16” which made for an excellent tight fit with the 1” I.D. hose and to secure all of that, I used screw clamps over the hose to be sure. The green hose that goes into the right angle 3/4” PVC fitting is just RTVed in place. See the pics.

    Hi Karl,

    .... No it was not an oversight, I have not decided whether or not to run a flexable hose or run a hard line or a combination of both. The other point is that the size of the fitting coming off the pan, is larger than most, and I need to take that into considerstion .

    Boyd
    .

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Karl Laustrup
    In the last picture I don't see a hose connected to the drain pan. Is that an oversight or did you just take the picture before you installed the hose?


    .
    Last edited by Boyd Gathwright; 02-04-2007 at 1:10 PM.
    Every man’s work is always a portrait of himself.

  13. #13

    Wink

    Hi Al,

    .... Thanks for the post and that little tidbit of information about the “deliming solution.” I will look in to that and most likely apply it the next time around. Both of our hot water heaters, one in the house and the other in the shop, are approximately 15 to 16 years old now. I think we have just about gotten the maximum durability out of both of them. The BIG change I think was after I scraped the limestone out of one and installed the WATER BOSS softener unit. Especially the softener, it has not only made the water a whole lot softer but has virtually eliminated the limestone. This particular unit has a built-in back flush 20 micron filter which, other than loading the salt, is a maintenance free unit.

    Thanks again.

    .

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Willits
    Not sure if it'd work in your case, but I've seen plumbers use a deliming solution and flush the water heater, might be a bit late with this little tidbit though...
    Chances are the two elements never come on at the same time, they can be wired in a couple of ways, but usually the upper element comes on, comes up to set temp, shuts off and then the bottom one comes on, so rating for 4500 watts total would make sense.

    Al
    .
    Every man’s work is always a portrait of himself.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Kalamazoo, MI
    Posts
    781
    I'm a firm believer in running soft water into everything except the kitchen cold and the icemaker....even the toilet.
    Kyle in K'zoo
    Screws are kinda like knots, if you can't use the right one, use lots of 'em.
    The greatest tragedy in life is the gruesome murder of a beautiful theory by a brutal gang of facts.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Geneva, Swisscheeseland
    Posts
    1,501
    Do you have any plans on adding a household water filter to your setup? They are pretty effective at reducing sediment in the water and may help you prevent this from happening again.

    Dan
    A flute without holes, is not a flute. A donut without a hole, is a Danish.

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