Having logs milled/dried to use

[John Pollman]

Hi there everyone !

I live in Southeast Michigan where the incideous Emerald Ash Borer is just devistating our Ash tree population. We live in a beautiful older sub-division with big lots and a lot of trees and woods. This past summer our neighbor accross the street had THIRTY TWO trees (all but two of them were Ash) removed leaving an empty yard. Well our lot is just shy of 1.5 acres and about half of it is wooded and a good deal of the trees are Ash also. One of the Ash in my front yard is the "grandparent" to a lot of the other trees in the area. It is about 34" diameter and at least 100' high. The main trunk is almost perfectly straight and it's about 22' to the first "crotch" where it splits for the first time. I've also got two very big mature Black Cherry trees in the backyard that are about 22" and 24" in diameter and about 80' tall. Those too have very straight trunks and at least 20-22' to the first crotch. The Ash in the front is still alive but it won't be that way for too much longer. I'm sure the borer has already started it's work. The Cherries in the back are mature and starting to get some deadwood up in the upper portion of the trees. They are both directly over my sons play structure and play area. They're both starting to drop some dead branches and such so I'm concerned that someone could be hurt eventually. I hate to lose them but I'm considering "harvesting" them while there's still some value to the lumber. That Ash in the front will probably have to come down in the next year or so and I'm thinking that I may just have the three of them taken down at the same time. I've found an outfit about 30 miles from me that has a portable mill that will handle logs of this size. It's surprisingly not that expensive to have the lumber milled. He'll come right here and mill the logs right on site.
There is also a place not too far away that will do small loads of lumber in their kiln. I think this may be the best way to do it. If I were to do this, I'm sure I'd have PLENTY of lumber to keep me busy for a LONG time ! Money's pretty tight so I'm thinking that maybe I could find someone who may be interested in some of the lumber in exchange for some of the labor cost.
Anyway, have any of you ever had logs milled and dried for use ? If so, did it work out well and would you do it again ?

I'm just thinking that it would be nice to actually MAKE something out of this lumber instead of having it chipped up and shredded. There is a transport ban on Ash trees here in southeast Michigan but the lumber can be milled and used. The borer only resides in the cambrium layer just below the bark so there isn't an issue of spreading the pest.

I just thought I'd ask here to see what some of you think.

Thanks in advance for any input !

John

[Steve Ash]

John,
What does the transport ban mean? You can not take them off your property?
My best friend has a sawmill, kiln, planer, etc. He made me 400 sq. ft of toungue and groove cedar paneling that I just put up today, as well as 400 sq. ft. of tongue and groove ash paneling we put in our cabin. It would be a bit of a road trip for you though. If you are interested in checking things out that way just drop me a PM.
Steve

[Jeff Sudmeier]

The first question is if you have room to store it. If you do and you can work out a deal, go for it! It would be very neat to make furniture out of your own trees. If you have to lose them anyway, why not do it while they are worth something to them.

Also, I would imagine that most of the cost you are looking at is kiln drying. There are many plans on the web for simple solar kilns, that supposedly work. Do a google search for solar kilns that you can build yourself and see if that helps out on the cost.

Finally, talk to the person doing the sawing to see if they want some of the lumber for part of their charges.

[Bob Smalser]

Anyway, have any of you ever had logs milled and dried for use ? If so, did it work out well and would you do it again ?

A healthy chunk of my annual income and the entire source of my personal wood is doing this for other people. I have 100k bf stacked as we speak. Of course I recommend it.

On shares is by far the best deal for you, as there is a lot of lumber in what you describe.

If you have patience until the end of next summer, you won't need that solar kiln, either.

[John Pollman]

Cool, thanks for the input guys. I've actually got another friend who's a BIG woodworker. He too has a lot of lumber that he gets from many sources. He tells me to just have the stuff milled and stack it neatly in the basement with spacers between layers and it'll dry all by itself. I may just go that route. The guy with the mill says he get's like $1.00/mile for travel charges and $90/hr for the mill. He say's his mill is capable of about 500 bf/hr I think. It sounds to me like for probably $300-$400 I could have all this stuff milled up. That's CHEAP compared to what it would cost me to buy that much lumber ! The expensive part is going to be getting the trees cut down. I got one price for the Ash alone of $1500 ! But that was cut, cleaned up and hauled away. I think I could probably get someone to at least knock it down and get it on the ground and leave it for much less than that. I could do the cleanup. I've got a fireplace so getting rid of the smaller limbs and such would be no problem and for about $100 I can rent a 6" cpacity chipper. But I'd only need to chip the small branches and brush.

Steve,

the transport ban just states that you're not allowed to take ANY Ash trees out of the quarantine area. (Which is most of southeastern Michigan)

[Scott Banbury]

John,


I run a sawmill to supply my own woodworking business and do custom sawing for folks in my area on the side.

I strongly suggest that you get the Ash KD immediately after sawing. Unless you are really excited about building with the ash (personally, I think it's a bear to work with), I would suggest that it's highest value would be flooring. Either use it in your own home or, if you have the cash to play with, QS it at 4/4, have it dried and then tongue and grooved in random widths (3"-4"-5" or 4"-5"-6").

You should have no problem selling it in the newspaper and will easily double your initial investment (sawing, kilning and moulding).

The Cherry should be inspected by a good arborist--one that specializes in keeping trees healthy, as opposed to one who makes his money dropping or topping. There's no point in cutting it down if it still has meat to be put on.

If you do decide to cut it I suggest having the the butt and second log sawn "through and through". This will only work on a bandmill (Woodmizer type),

The sawyer may not want to do it this way if he/she charges by the board foot as every cut will enter through bark, resulting in more blade dulling and slower sawing.

That's why I charge by the hour ($60). You get to choose whether you want quick dimension product or more careful face rotation for grade and/or specialty cuts (QS, natural edges, etc.)

In sawing through and through, the log is places on the mill with the best 2 faces parallel to the blade/beds. If the log has significant taper, the top face should be "toed up" so that it was perfectly parallel to the path of the blade. If the taper is not too bad, then you may just want to level the "pith" (center of the tree) to the blade. (this will result in some waste on the opening cuts, but most of that waste would be sapwood and who wants that abyhow?)

Saw a slab to open the first best face of the log and then saw down 5/4 (table tops) or 6/4 (for bookmatched panels to be reawn later) until you start to "lose grade" (see knots). Rotate the log 180 degrees and do the same to the second best face. After sawing both good faces you'll be left with a thick 2-sided "cant" (tapered if you toed the log). At this point, I suggest that you finish the log off by sawing 12-16/4 (for legs, turnings, etc.)

This can be done by leaving the cant on one of the flats but adjusting the "toe" so that the pith is parallel to the blade/bed and resulting in 2 tapered pieces of waste or by turning the log 90 degrees and sawing tapered boards (no waste but must be stacked by flipping every other each piece end for end.)

I would recommend air drying the Cherry yourself and acclimating it in your shop as needed for projects. Be attentive to stickering/stacking it neatly (Bob Smalser has covered this here before) and put weight on top of the pile. While edged Cherry dries very straight and forgivingly, the natural edged boards from closest to the bark will want to cup somwhat due to the lower density of the sapwood but that's why you had it sawn thick anyhow, right?

This is what your resulting lumber will look like:

[Bob Smalser]

I'll defer to Scott on the ash...if it tends toward mold, then kilning may be the best solution...but loading and unloading green wood is one heck of a lot of brutal labor if you can avoid it.

Our Bigleaf Maple likes to mold, too....but it doesn't go very deep so I mill most of it to 5/5 or thicker which also gives me more meat to flatten it after it has seasoned, as it doesn't dry well, either.

On a really pretty cherry butt log, I like to stack "in the bolle" so I can match boards in construction. Picture a long set of cabinets with each drawerfront and rail cut from the same board so the grain is continuous....same with door panels cut from succeeding board decks from the stack.

Three logs are on those bearers:

[Joseph N. Myers]

John,

1. Around here, WoodMizer is app. $60/hr starting when he leaves his home till he gets back home. So I guess the travel is the same, cutting quite a bit more. Does your guy include a helper to do the stacking? If so, better. My guy does about 450 bf/hr with a helper (an extra $10/hr more for the helper).

2. Ask your WoodMizer guy if he knows anyone that cuts down trees --- probably cheaper. Also don't forget about getting rid of the stumps that are left over --- usually pretty expensive for stump removal.

3. Like the idea of kiln drying the ash once its cut to kill the bugs. Bugs die at about 140 for some (?) period of time. If you have the time, maybe kiln drying to kill the bugs and then air drying. Of if the bugs only get under the bark, air drying after the bark is cut off would be the way to go.

4. Don't forget to paint the ends the same/next day the the logs are cut (I like latex, others like oil). Makes a big difference in end splits. And get a lot of "dried" stickers cut and ready to go before the cutting. I use basswood, 3/4 x 3/4 (others use 3/4 x 1-1/2) which dries quickly and leaves no stain. Don't use pine, pressure treated or anything with tanic acid (oaks, cedar, etc). Poplar is also nice. I guess ash would be ok also and it sounds like there should be enough of it in your area.

5. There are some really cheap designs for solar kilns if you have the room, the sun and don't care what it/they look like, i.e., not out in the open. A little/lot of plastic, fans and some light bulbs (yes, light bulbs). Could save you some money and be used for other people in the future. Besides, storing it in your basements takes a lot of room, a pain to move and cuts into you shop space.

6. And finally, watch what the price of ash will be in your area. It might be worth more as firewood then lumber. Around here, a face cord (4' x 8' x 18") is a little over 50 bf and goes for at least $100, i.e., $2/bf. Ash dried, rough lumber goes for around $2.50. Makes you think.

Regards, Joe
Regards

[Steve Inniss]

John,
There have been serious problems with a beetle attacking ash trees in parts of Ontario as well, and thousands of trees have been "culled" to stop it. It's the Asian Longhorn Beetle, I'm not sure if it's the same one. They came to North America in shipping crates from China. You may have to have the wood kiln dried to kill the beetles and eggs, larvae, whatever, if Michigan laws allow that.
I understand here, the trees were "cut and destroyed". -Steve

[Fred Voorhees]

Jim Becker did a pretty detailed photo essay of a milling operation at his home a number of years ago when he had to have a new septic system installed and a number of walnut and poplar trees had to come down. I've had the pleasure of using some of the poplar in my past projects. You can find the essay here:

http://sawsndust.com/a-milling.htm

[Jim Becker]

I've been doing a lot of my projects with lumber milled off our property back in 2000 when a new septic system required some trees to be removed. (There is a pictorial article on my site that shows the "fun") I certainly recommend you harvest for lumber if you need to remove the trees! I hate seeing them come down, but with good reasons, it's sometimes necssary. Milling on-site is very cost effective and you can air dry on-site completely or for about six months before sending the lumber to a kiln if you so choose.

[larry merlau]

as for the ash, i have used some in the past and would be intersted and gettin some more. but i agree with those on the cherry, if it is healthy let her stay. the ash if needed to be taken down does make some nice lumber. am not sure where you are in respect to my area but you can get a portable mill for anywhere from 20cents to .35 a bf in my parts. the kiln drying is where i have found difficulty in finding one, have some lumber that i want kiln dried but have found none close by. so if you get the ash done, i would be intersted in some of it if you have extra. just pm me when its available.

[Matt Meiser]

I'm by far not an expert, but my understanding is that the State of Michigan requires that the sawyer be licensed by the state to reclaim ash. I believe that they are also recommending (but not requiring) that the wood be kiln dried because the kiln temperatures kill the beetle and larve. There were some pretty big fines handed down a few weeks ago for improper handling of ash and transporting it to Ohio can get you in pretty big trouble according to the large signs at the border.

I believe this guy is one of the certified individuals. I would think the DNR could also provide you a list of certified sawyers. Its probably a pretty short list.

[John Branam]

I just attended a local wood working club this past weekend, the speaker was Sam Sherrill who wrote a book on this subject he also has a website that has info on this topic I think it is harvesting urbanforestry.com. not sure though if you google his name you will find it.

[Dan Gill]

I

I believe this guy is one of the certified individuals. I would think the DNR could also provide you a list of certified sawyers. Its probably a pretty short list.

I know a guy here in the DFW area who came down from Michigan this past year. He brought 4000 board feet of ash from logs to lumber with him. I believe he said he paid 40 cents a board foot. The logs to lumber organization originally set up with a grant to reclaim the ash that the emerald ash borer was killing. I think they sell at cost. At least, that's the story I heard.