not all jobs are DIY...

[Neal Clayton]

thankfully there are some things other folks are good at...

if i had to plaster these ceilings i'd need back surgery by lunch time and wouldn't be done in a week, these guys can do a whole ceiling in a ~400 square foot bedroom by 10 am, and half the walls before lunch time.

before and after...

102 years worth of cracks and settling, plus the previous owners put drywall over the plaster so there's all the nail holes and the cracks the drywall fasteners caused...

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and after ~3 hours of work, including digging out and filling the cracks...


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i know people knock immigrant labor but as far as i can tell every kid in mexico knows how to use a hawk and trowel . i'm sure there are some things they can't do just like anyone else but if it involves stones, bricks, plaster, stucco or mortar they seem to be pretty good at it.

[frank shic]

i'm trying to retexture the ceiling of my bathroom right now after removing an old light fixture and it's a major pain!!! kudos to them for doing the work right the first time around. i'm looking forward to attempt #2 with the texture gun tonight...

[Van Huskey]

The "check wrench" is the best wrench sometimes!

There are some jobs now that immigrant labor is not only the cheapest but the best, fastest and the cheapest as well around here. Hand finished concrete slabs, drywall and asphalt shingled roofs are examples here. One of the largest roofing contractors in this area is Mexican from top to bottom, and I love them.

Plaster is a dying art...

[Rod Sheridan]

Of course immigrant labour is great. (He says patting himself on the back.)

Unless your name is Cree, Huron etc we're all immigrants.

Regards, Rod.

[Neal Clayton]

Plaster is a dying art...

indeed. there's only a couple of guys left around here that are still doing plaster. from what my guy tells me they both stay afloat doing stucco patches, ornamental stone work, and swimming pools in between the bigger industrial type jobs (hospitals, prisons, etc. still have inside plaster walls).

unfortunately too many people are anxious to gut old buildings to put up drywall instead. never saw the point in that when a plasterer can fix what ya got.

[George Bregar]

Many good reasons to get rid of plaster in old buildings: 1) Upgrade electrical. More costly to do it with existing plaster walls. 2) Add insulation (see number 1) 3. Less costly to drywall than repair plaster...and then repair it again...and again...and again. And it's hard for guys to compete against illegal (you guys forgot a word) immigrant labor...contractors don't use illegals because they are good at it.

[Peter Quinn]

I love plaster. Beats the he double hockey sticks out of chalk with craft paper on it. Ever try to punch through a 1" thick plaster wall? Usually leeds to broken fingers. Sheetrock was not designed as the best way to do anything, just fast and cheep, which is the general direction our great American society has headed since WWII on almost all fronts. Yes, what was a way to create garbage barracks on the fly for GI's has now become a way of life for most.

There are a few plaster contractors surviving here in my part of New England, and it is considered a LUXARY finish, not something you get stuck with in a crappy old house. I own the latter, but its the only way I could afford all this glorious cementious lime plaster. All the finest homes I have delivered millwork to have plaster walls, its pretty much a forgone conclusion for hight end work. The surface texture and durability, not to mention sound deadening and fire resistance are just superior in every way to "Cheap Rock" as my immigrant grandfather (Quebecois...Je Me souvien!!!) used to call it. So frankly I don't care what the country of origin of the labor is, if they can plaster, more power to them. Far as I understand the guys around here are at least third generation citizens, mostly of Italian decent. Seems they have a fair bit of plaster in Venice as well. I actually sat and watched a group of guys from Venice plaster a groin vaulted ceiling in a restaurant I helped open. Multiple layers of plaster, hand rubbed, faux finished, hand waxed...just stunning work. Looked like a polished marble ceiling when they were done in an iridescent medium blue shade. They actually ripped out sheet rock to put in plaster! Maybe that will catch on? Nah, why build a quality home when you can just build a big one?

[George Bregar]

I love plaster. Beats the he double hockey sticks out of chalk with craft paper on it. Ever try to punch through a 1" thick plaster wall? Usually leeds to broken fingers. Sheetrock was not designed as the best way to do anything, just fast and cheep, which is the general direction our great American society has headed since WWII on almost all fronts. Yes, what was a way to create garbage barracks on the fly for GI's has now become a way of life for most.

There are a few plaster contractors surviving here in my part of New England, and it is considered a LUXARY finish, not something you get stuck with in a crappy old house. I own the latter, but its the only way I could afford all this glorious cementious lime plaster. All the finest homes I have delivered millwork to have plaster walls, its pretty much a forgone conclusion for hight end work. The surface texture and durability, not to mention sound deadening and fire resistance are just superior in every way to "Cheap Rock" as my immigrant grandfather (Quebecois...Je Me souvien!!!) used to call it. So frankly I don't care what the country of origin of the labor is, if they can plaster, more power to them. Far as I understand the guys around here are at least third generation citizens, mostly of Italian decent. Seems they have a fair bit of plaster in Venice as well. I actually sat and watched a group of guys from Venice plaster a groin vaulted ceiling in a restaurant I helped open. Multiple layers of plaster, hand rubbed, faux finished, hand waxed...just stunning work. Looked like a polished marble ceiling when they were done in an iridescent medium blue shade. They actually ripped out sheet rock to put in plaster! Maybe that will catch on? Nah, why build a quality home when you can just build a big one?

You really bought a crappy old house so you could have plaster? Wow. You must really love plaster!

While no doubt that plaster is a superior finish...or as you said a luxury (def: refinement of living rather than a necessity), it does not make sheetrock crap. Sheetrock is great product. Provides a good wall surface, is durable, offers good fire protection, good sound deadening, easy to install and repair, and an affordable price. It's called value. These are the very reason that it is now the standard surface for new construction. And it allows us to get more for less...lot's of us would prefer to live in a bigger home, and have more space, or just have more money in our pockets, than have plaster.

[Neal Clayton]

for major plumbing/insulation work i don't disagree that it's the easiest way. going back with plaster isn't too difficult/costly, though, with these blueboard plaster jobs that folks do these days. i have some ceilings done with blueboard and they're imperceptible from the original walls, i think it's a great compromise. and since plaster sets quicker than joint compounds and there are no joints to build up it can be done in roughly the same amount of time, as well, albeit at a higher cost.

as for durability, i would disagree that it's an ongoing maintenance thing. lime plaster over a wood lath is actually quite durable. it's amazingly flexible for how hard it sets, and it can withstand quite a bit of movement before it cracks.

the problem is people often repair cracks that do show up poorly. they think they can fill it with drywall compound and just call it fixed. that doesn't really work. you gotta dig cracks out deeper and span them with wire lath or fiberglass tape, then build it back up. if old cracks are repaired that way (properly) they don't come back. that and drywall mud doesn't work because premixed drywall mud shrinks, you gotta use actual plaster (or at the very least, setting compound with a bonder).

and yes, you gotta love plaster to want to pay for it. i correct people who see my house all the time when they ask why i didn't just "tear out those 'old' walls".

because my walls were built by a skilled hand, not by a chinese machine, that's why.

I actually sat and watched a group of guys from Venice plaster a groin vaulted ceiling in a restaurant I helped open. Multiple layers of plaster, hand rubbed, faux finished, hand waxed...just stunning work. Looked like a polished marble ceiling when they were done in an iridescent medium blue shade. They actually ripped out sheet rock to put in plaster! Maybe that will catch on? Nah, why build a quality home when you can just build a big one?

i enjoy sitting and watching these guys when i have them doing work too. i don't get impressed with wood very much anymore, to be honest. beyond knowing how to operate the tools and knowing all the "gotchas" with doing things in a certain order, building windows and doors and cutting moldings is nothing more than simple math to me.

these plaster guys building a flat surface out of goop with a trowel, with nothing more than eyeballing and feeling it is much more impressive to me.

it's the one architectural detail that is still, and always will be, truly 'hand made'.

for that reason, yes, i'll always have my plaster walls.

[George Bregar]

[QUOTE=Neal Clayton;1618941]for major plumbing/insulation work i don't disagree that it's the easiest way. going back with plaster isn't too difficult/costly, though, with these blueboard plaster jobs that folks do these days. i have some ceilings done with blueboard and they're imperceptible from the original walls, i think it's a great compromise. and since plaster sets quicker than joint compounds and there are no joints to build up it can be done in roughly the same amount of time, as well, albeit at a higher cost. [QUOTE=Neal Clayton;1618941] The question was regarding reasons to remove old plaster and we agree. As far as "blueboard" jobs, really moot to the "imperceptable from all walls"...the blueboard simply replaces the role of the lap and has nothing to do with the finish.

as for durability, i would disagree that it's an ongoing maintenance thing. lime plaster over a wood lath is actually quite durable. it's amazingly flexible for how hard it sets, and it can withstand quite a bit of movement before it cracks.

I don't question that plaster is durable...I was more referencing old plaster that had gone bad.

the problem is people often repair cracks that do show up poorly. they think they can fill it with drywall compound and just call it fixed. that doesn't really work. you gotta dig cracks out deeper and span them with wire lath or fiberglass tape, then build it back up. if old cracks are repaired that way (properly) they don't come back. that and drywall mud doesn't work because premixed drywall mud shrinks, you gotta use actual plaster (or at the very least, setting compound with a bonder).

That's really my point...and yours hence this thread, plaster repair is not an easy DIY...most should hire it out, and don't. Even worse than this crack issue is plaster that has broken away from the lathe. Not uncommon in old homes. Lathe dries out over the years loosening the bond. In some cases walls will heave or bow. Others it looks fine until you work on the wall. In many cases this can be repaired...but again I think its beyond most people. And it costs a lot of money.

and yes, you gotta love plaster to want to pay for it. i correct people who see my house all the time when they ask why i didn't just "tear out those 'old' walls".

because my walls were built by a skilled hand, not by a chinese machine, that's why.


i enjoy sitting and watching these guys when i have them doing work too. i don't get impressed with wood very much anymore, to be honest. beyond knowing how to operate the tools and knowing all the "gotchas" with doing things in a certain order, building windows and doors and cutting moldings is nothing more than simple math to me.

these plaster guys building a flat surface out of goop with a trowel, with nothing more than eyeballing and feeling it is much more impressive to me.

it's the one architectural detail that is still, and always will be, truly 'hand made'.

for that reason, yes, i'll always have my plaster walls.

That's fine...your house and your money. I take exception with those that say "drywall" is crap though and just some cheap alternative. You want plaster and want to pay a premium for it? Fine.

[Neal Clayton]

well, there's price then there's price.

we're not talking about custom plaster moldings and a sculpture of myself and my dog on pedestals in the living room.

from experience, a drywall job is gonna cost around 1500 bucks per thousand square feet of floor space around here. so a 4 thousand square foot house, probably about 6 grand. obviously more if you have someone gut the original walls.

for stable old plaster that just needs a new skim coat and cracks repaired, i got my upstairs rooms done for 5 grand (about 2000 square feet).

if you figure the cost of demo on the original walls the overall cost of having my whole house skimmed would probably only differ by a couple/three thousand dollars.

in that respect, repairing what's there, if what's there is structurally sound, is perfectly viable from a cost standpoint imo.

[George Bregar]

well, there's price then there's price.

we're not talking about custom plaster moldings and a sculpture of myself and my dog on pedestals in the living room.

from experience, a drywall job is gonna cost around 1500 bucks per thousand square feet of floor space around here. so a 4 thousand square foot house, probably about 6 grand. obviously more if you have someone gut the original walls.

for stable old plaster that just needs a new skim coat and cracks repaired, i got my upstairs rooms done for 5 grand (about 2000 square feet).

if you figure the cost of demo on the original walls the overall cost of having my whole house skimmed would probably only differ by a couple/three thousand dollars.

in that respect, repairing what's there, if what's there is structurally sound, is perfectly viable from a cost standpoint imo.

You're mixing arguments. I never suggested tearing down the plaster to simply replace with drywall...it was in light of updating electrical or insulation...two tasks that are more expensive or ineffective with old plaster. You agreed. So if you start from "just studs" your minor cost of plaster gets a lot more than minor. That said, if you want to shell out a lot of money to repair or replace plaster with plaster...fine. Your house, your money. But drywall is a perfectly fine product in every sense. There is a reason it has become the standard. It's a better value.

[Neal Clayton]

oh i don't disagree with you there, for a new building it would be a vast difference in cost.

for an old one that has the walls already though, not that much difference with everything else considered.