Finishing stained fireplace with Waterlox

[Wayne Watling]

Hi,

I've read quite a few of the Waterlox posts on here and have a few questions.

I'm about to start finishing a mahogany fireplace stained with Old Masters Gel stain. The stain went on well and I'll leave it for 72 hrs (per instructions) before finishing. I'm concerned that application of the finish will take up some of the stain. I have both the original sealer/finish and the satin Waterlox and have some questions:

1) Does the Original sealer/finish require thining 50/50 if wiped on or does that only apply to the Satin and Gloss products?
2) Should I brush or wipe on the first coat to help eliminate the possibility of lifting the stain.
3) The fireplace and surround is in place and much of the surfaces are vertical, whats the best approach to finishing with Waterlox on vertical surfaces.

Thanks,
Wayne

[Casey Gooding]

If you've allowed the stain to dry thoroughly, you shouldn't have any problems with your finish. Personally, I prefer the Original Sealer/Finish. It is pretty thin to begin with, so I wouldn't use any thinner. I use a rag to wipe it on, let it sit for a few minutes, then wipe off the excess. Takes a few coats, but it's a great finish.

[Prashun Patel]

I'm with Casey. I'm using the Gloss product on a top now and it's a little harder to apply for me than the Original Sealer/Finish.

The Sealer is already thinned for you. You can brush OR wipe it and it will build fine.
After 72 hours I don't think you'll have a problem with the stain lifting, but if the first few swipes tell you otherwise, you can always pad on a coat of shellac. This will seal in the stain. It will also have the beneficial effect of minimizing the number of the more expensive Waterlox coats.

[Henry Ambrose]

Since a re-do here will be very, very difficult I suggest you stain a test piece to see what really happens when you add Waterlox on top (or any finish).
Mixing products is a definite hazard until you know form experience they play well together.

(not ragging on the OP)
I don't really know why, but this question keeps coming up again and again. I suppose it might be that everyone who writes an article on finishing wants to throw in their semi-secret concoction for some added mystery. Or maybe its the whole "finishing schedule" thing - it must be more "professional" to have a seemingly sophisticated written plan. I think it is not. There is no substitute for testing for yourself. And there is no schedule that will get every job done the same. Skip the formulaic method and think for yourself. Test your plan before you get to the end stage and find yourself backed in a corner. If you're building something and want to use a new finish - try it out before you cut the first board.

[Wayne Watling]

Casey/Prashun,

Thanks, I was told by the rep that I should apply the Original first and then the Satin for the remainder of the coats because I really didn't want the glossy look. I've had problems with applying varnish on vertical surfaces in the past and was concerned about runs, I guess wiping thinned coats of the Satin would be the safest bet. My plan was to first test your recommendations on a sample piece.


Henry,

I agree and subscribe to the view regarding a full test first. Before one does this however it is best to have a plan and that is what I'm putting together now. Originally I had done all the testing using a different finish, for various reasons I changed the finish and will be using Waterlox which I have never used before. I also performed a bunch of searches on this forum before asking my questions, some of the posts appeared to contradict one another, one post said to thin 50/50 before wiping without mentioning which formula he was refering too, another said the Original formula didn't need thining. So I have done quite a bit of homework and thinking before posting, I'd suggest that if you are wearing thin in answering these questions then stay away, go do some woodwork or something. I've shared many of the finished projects on this forum and I don't personally have a problem asking any questions when I feel I need too.

Have a good day.

Regards,
Wayne

[Prashun Patel]

A couple thoughts:

1) I've had bad luck wiping satin varnish (I haven't though wiped satin waterlox). It comes out streaky for me. I've only had luck brushing on satin varnish.

2) The Original Sealer is glossy when it initially dries, but the gloss really does settle down to a 'semigloss' over a week or two. I'd be more inclined to go with that if it were me. If after a month it's still too glossy, you can rub it out down to a satin.

3) Because there are not large expanses of horizontal planes getting raking light, the diffs between the sheens on your fireplace are not going to be as dramatic as on a table.

[Tim Sproul]

Thin finishes are generally very difficult to keep from running on vertical surfaces.

I'd consider purchasing a rattle can or 2 of shellac or lacquer since I assume you don't have a spray system already. Mask off the nearby areas, put a filter on a box fan and spray away. Cover the floor around the mantle. In general, mantles don't see a lot of wear and tear.

[Scott Holmes]

A wipe on coat of varnish even the slow drying Waterlox should not run or sag. Remember wipe it on like the kid wipes the table at the fast food joint and let it dry.

[Casey Gooding]

I haven't found the Sealer/Finish to be glossy at all. Once it dries, it has a nice medium sheen that I don't know I would even call it satin. It's one of my favorites as far as this goes.

[Henry Ambrose]

Casey/Prashun,

Thanks, I was told by the rep that I should apply the Original first and then the Satin for the remainder of the coats because I really didn't want the glossy look. I've had problems with applying varnish on vertical surfaces in the past and was concerned about runs, I guess wiping thinned coats of the Satin would be the safest bet. My plan was to first test your recommendations on a sample piece.


Henry,

I agree and subscribe to the view regarding a full test first. Before one does this however it is best to have a plan and that is what I'm putting together now. Originally I had done all the testing using a different finish, for various reasons I changed the finish and will be using Waterlox which I have never used before. I also performed a bunch of searches on this forum before asking my questions, some of the posts appeared to contradict one another, one post said to thin 50/50 before wiping without mentioning which formula he was refering too, another said the Original formula didn't need thining. So I have done quite a bit of homework and thinking before posting, I'd suggest that if you are wearing thin in answering these questions then stay away, go do some woodwork or something. I've shared many of the finished projects on this forum and I don't personally have a problem asking any questions when I feel I need too.

Have a good day.

Regards,
Wayne

I never said not to ask questions "(not ragging on the OP)".
Now you're the one telling me to "stay away"?
Gimme a break.

Good luck with your project.

[Tim Sproul]

A wipe on coat of varnish even the slow drying Waterlox should not run or sag. Remember wipe it on like the kid wipes the table at the fast food joint and let it dry.

Scott,

I've not used Waterlox so this may not apply. With wipe-on poly, I cannot get an even wipe-on coat without it running. I have to apply such a thin coat that you see streaks/lines from the rag/pad/cloth because lots of area get almost no finish. If I wipe on enough that it leaves a uniform thin layer, it runs on vertical surfaces.

Again, Waterlox may behave differently but that is my experience with wipe-on poly.

Personally, I don't like wiping finishes. You trade off A LOT of time for ease of application. It takes a long time to apply 10, 20, 30 coats of finish. A decent HVLP set up is fairly affordable and opens up a lot of finishes. Plus, I have found spray finishes to be much easier to apply to vertical surfaces compared to brushed or wiped finishes. You can be done with 2-5 coats of spray finish.

[Wayne Watling]

Some terrific feedback folks and much appreciated. I'll do some testing and post the outcome.

-Wayne.

[Rosemarie Smallcombe]

Some terrific feedback folks and much appreciated. I'll do some testing and post the outcome.

-Wayne.

Hi Wayne,

Wondered if you had completed your test efforts yet. My husband has been building cabinets for our kitchen and I'm responsible for staining and finishing. Am interested in the Waterlox Original but, before we buy, thought I'd check in with you. BTW, the latest issue of Fine Woodworking (April 2011) has an article about wiping varnish and the author, Michael Pekovich, recommends application of the first coat with a brush.

Thanks,
Rosemarie

[Prashun Patel]

Rosemarie,
As a fan of Waterlox and as a non-expert, I offer this:

The only reason to brush the first coat is to speed the build. You might only have to wipe on, say 6 coats instead of 9 if you brush the first. Most of the 1st coat will end up in the wood anyway, so the risk of drips and blemishes is lower than on subsequent coats.

Personally, I find this messy and you still have to watch for drips and runs.

Some people make the 'mistake' (and I say that humbly) of using the rag to BRUSH the material instead of wiping it on. When wiping, you're more polishing than laying down finish. The rag should be moist - not wet, and you should leave the surface slick - not wet. This way you will never get drips - even on vertical surfaces. But, you will require more coats. You can do multiple coats in the same day (like 3). Don't wipe over the same spot a million times, and don't be tempted to lay down a thick coat because you don't see it building. Don't re-wipe an area because you see minor streaks - only rewipe if you see a bare spot in raking light - and do that within a minute of application, otherwise you end up moving around the varnish after it begins to set, and you'll get streaks that won't self-level (DAMHIKT!). Be patient; the Waterlox WILL build, and it WILL self-level; those streaks will disappear. DE-nib it every several coats only if it doesn't feel smooth to yr touch.

I recently did a countertop in Waterlox and did not follow my own advice. I fixed my issues, but will remember next time what works best for me time and again.

[Rosemarie Smallcombe]

Hi Prashun,

Thanks very much. I appreciate your willingness to share techniques and the results of your efforts. We'll pick up some Waterlox next week and I'll give it a try. BTW -- really like your Abraham Lincoln quote.