Home Theater surround sound setup advice needed

[Larry Browning]

I am in the process of researching setting up a low to mid-range Surround Sound setup in the living room to compliment my new 55" Samsung LED tv that I got for Christmas.
I am looking for advice on speaker purchase and placement. I have checked out some of the Home Theater forums but these seem to be geared toward the high end stuff that I cannot afford (or want to, for that matter) I would rather spend that kind of money on woodworking! So I am turning to my friends here at the creek for some sane advise.
I have built a tv cabinet to sit it on 100_1780.jpg

The front speakers will be behind the doors on each end of the cabinet. The cabinet sits directly below the peak of a vaulted ceiling which runs perpendicular to the cabinet. The room is 16X17 with the main seating area about 9-10 ft directly in front of the TV. I am planning on a 5.1 setup. Speaker selection and placement (especially the surround speakers) is my biggest issue at this point. Right now I am leaning toward getting in-ceiling speakers mounted in the vaulted ceiling positioned slightly behind and to the side of the seating area. At this point this seems to be my best option for the surround speakers due to hardwood floors on a slab. I have talked to some co-workers that have a similar setup that say it works well.

Components I currently have and therefore feel I must continue to use:
2 Cerwin-Vega RE Series 20 Front Speakers
1 Technics center speaker that came with my 20 year old receiver (I might want to replace this in the future)

Components I have decided on but do not own yet:
Onkyo HT-RC270 $479 at Amazon
Yamaha YST-SW216BL Advanced YST II Front-Firing Active Subwoofer


Components I am considering in no particular order:
Yamaha NS-IW360C 2-Way In-Ceiling Speaker System, White Set of 2

Micca M-8C 8 Inch 2-Way In-Ceiling In-Wall Speaker (Single speaker so I have to buy 2)

AudioSource AC6C 6.5-Inch In-Ceiling Speakers (Pair)

Yamaha NS-IW360C 2-Way In-Ceiling Speaker System, White Set of 2

Pyle Home PDIC80 300-Watt 8-Inch 2-Way In-Ceiling Speaker System

So after all this, what do you guys think? Is the in-ceiling speaker route workable? If so which one would be my best value? I would like to keep my speaker purchase in $150-175 range.

[Eric Franklin]

On the speaker end, I don't have much advice. On the receiver, I would look at some other models which could save you some money on the receiver. I have the Onkyo TX-SR607 for a few years and my only complaint is that it runs really hot. I have a friend that has the Pioneer VSX-920-K which Amazon is currently selling for $272.77 which is a similar receiver to the Onkyo. You could just bump up to the Pioneer VSX-1020-K which is $360.00. Yamaha also makes some nice receivers. If I could replace my receiver right now, I would get the Pioneer VSX-1020-K.

Are you planning on getting a Blu-ray player to go with this? The uncompressed audio(Dolby Digital HD or DTS Master Audio) and the 1080p video is worth it with certain movies.

[Van Huskey]

Larry, may I suggest rethinking the speaker issue. The best solution is to have all 5 or 7 or whatever speakers exactly the same. This however usually gets compromised with the center channel when people go to a horizontal array MTM. That isn't that big a deal as long as the speaker is properly designed. At a minimum get all the speakers from the same company and the same line. I understand the desire to use architectural (in wall/ceiling) but understand that unless you spend seriously big money they are always a big compromise, but it can be worked with but in-ceiling is the worse than in wall. I won't go into further detail unless you ask since the chances of you changing direction this much is very unlikely.

The biggest mistake I see is the subwoofer, think Harbor Freight table saw quality. You are likely better off sound wise not having it. The best bargains in subwoofers are by far the internet direct companies and I will send you a list if you are interested. The subwoofer budget needs to about triple or it is going to be painful to listen, no definition, one note muddy bass.

The bottom line is you need to spend more on speakers even if you have to spend less on electronics. Speakers are like the wood, if you have crappy wood you can have a shop filled with Martin and Felder but it can't fix wood that looks like garbage.

[Larry Browning]

I have a requirement for the receiver to be networked to play pandora and internet radio. This is my main reason for choosing the Onkyo. It has the best interface by far of anything I looked at. I spent many hours researching this and I am satisfied with my choice. The receiver is not up for discussion. I am tired of looking at receivers and need to move on.
I have a HUGE desire to keep my front speakers. I really like them, they are old, but they produce very good sound, plus I have a sentimental attachment and I built the cabinet around them. I suppose I could be talked into a different subwoofer as long as it is in the $100 range. That only leaves the surround and center speakers. I have a center speaker that I thought I could live with for a while, so my focus has shifted to the surround speakers. My only practical choice seems to be in-ceiling speakers, and I am having a difficult time choosing which ones.
No one would ever mistake me for an audiophile. I met one once and we didn't get along. I have a VERY limited budget when it comes to the speakers, $150-175 is just about it. I don't know, maybe I am fooling myself in thinking I can even do this at all. I AM depressed

[Larry Browning]

Are you planning on getting a Blu-ray player to go with this? The uncompressed audio(Dolby Digital HD or DTS Master Audio) and the 1080p video is worth it with certain movies.

I already have the LG BD570 blu-ray player and LOVE it! I use it to stream Netflix movies.

[Tim Morton]

Hi Larry,

I would say i am a home theater guy first and a wood worker second...so i may be able to help you out here. And i will try not to be one of those pesky audiophile guys that you don't like.

The two most important speakers in the home theater experience will be the subwofer and the center channel. So we will talk to about them next.

The question you asked is about the rear surround speakers, and sure you can do in ceiling speakers...alot of people go that route and its fine. The only way i would not do that is if you would be sitting directly under either one of them? And whos to say you need to mount in ceiling speakers in the ceiling...maybe get some in wall speakers? But don't get too caught up in this part. You said in ceiling was "the only practical" option...care to elaborate a little?

Center Chanel...and this is the audiophile in me...this is what affects the sound of the voices...if you are happy then fine, but that would be my first upgrade based on what you are planning on using.

Subwoofer...humor me and look at something in the 12" size as a minimum...they aren't that much more and you will be much happier.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=300-635

for rear surround who about these?

http://www.amazon.com/Polk-Audio-RC8...ref=pd_cp_pc_1

[Brad Knight]

I'm a huge Onkyo fan - I would look at the NR-708 receiver as well - similar specs and price - I think 1 more HDMI port. Onkyo is supposed to be coming out with an iPad app to control the whole receiver across the network - there are already some apps that will do that, but with their latest firmware update, I'm curious to see their app. I think both receivers are compatible.

I'm also a Klipsh fan as well - I got a sale flier from newegg in my email with a weekend special on their 5.1 HD-300 speakers for $229 reg $399 with promo code EMCYTZT276. Keep the CV's for your fronts and you'd have your 7.1 system.

Good luck - electronics are as addicting as woodworking -

[Larry Browning]

Tim,
Thank you so much for your reply! I am slowly coming to realize that my budget is unrealistic. I just spent almost 2 grand on a tv and blu-ray player which really stretched me pretty thin. I was thinking that I could get a pretty decent audio setup for around $600 more, and I would save up for it here and there, and be able to get it before I ran across another "must have" woodworking tool.
I really have my mind set on that receiver, and from what feedback I am getting, my budget needs to be expanded to more like $800.
All of this is just making me feel pretty selfish for wanting all these expensive toys. I have a wonderful wife, children and grand children that could all use some spoiling.
Maybe I am just not ready spend that much more on myself.
Of course I may feel differently about this tomorrow, but for now.....

[Tim Morton]

Totally understandable...and one way to think aboout the purchase, is will you be able to enjoy this experience with your wife, children and grand children?

Check out this receiver and tell me what you think...i have the SR-6004 and it has a very nice user interface...super simple. The 5004 is a few bucks cheaper...

http://www.accessories4less.com/make...eceiver/1.html

never mind...not a network receiver...sorry.

[Larry Browning]

Hey Tim, Do these new receivers that have the on screen interfaces display a volume graphic when adjusting the receiver volume like you would see on a TV?
Just wondering.

[Larry Browning]

I'm a huge Onkyo fan - I would look at the NR-708 receiver as well - similar specs and price - I think 1 more HDMI port. Onkyo is supposed to be coming out with an iPad app to control the whole receiver across the network - there are already some apps that will do that, but with their latest firmware update, I'm curious to see their app. I think both receivers are compatible.

I'm also a Klipsh fan as well - I got a sale flier from newegg in my email with a weekend special on their 5.1 HD-300 speakers for $229 reg $399 with promo code EMCYTZT276. Keep the CV's for your fronts and you'd have your 7.1 system.

Good luck - electronics are as addicting as woodworking -

Actually the NR-708 was my 1st choice, but the HT-RC270 was about $100 cheaper. Just looked on Amazon, it was $629 (wow! that's $150 now!)

[Bryan Morgan]

Hey Tim, Do these new receivers that have the on screen interfaces display a volume graphic when adjusting the receiver volume like you would see on a TV?
Just wondering.

If you use your receiver to do your video switching they do. You can set them to relative or absolute also.

[Bryan Morgan]

On the speaker end, I don't have much advice. On the receiver, I would look at some other models which could save you some money on the receiver. I have the Onkyo TX-SR607 for a few years and my only complaint is that it runs really hot. I have a friend that has the .

I have the newer SR608 and it doesn't get that hot. THX and a really nice upscaling processor. I don't think the auto calibrate stuff works all that well though. I can do a better job manually using a test dvd. I have an old SR602 that got a little warm, though not too bad. This is my 3rd or 4th Onkyo. So far they've never let me down.

[Eric DeSilva]

I say skip the center channel. Most HT processors can create a phantom center using the L & R fronts, which is where most people tend to spend their money (and should spend their money if they listen to a lot of music). In a movie surround set up, the CC tends to carry virtually all of the sound, which means--if you have one--it needs to be the highest quality speaker in your rig. But that investment is relatively useless when you switch to two-channel stereo. On the other hand, any decent front speakers will image well enough to create the illusion of a center channel.

The only upside of a center channel--as far as I can tell--is that it will anchor the dialog to the screen when you have people sitting so far off-axis that a stereo image would be messed up. The cost of that is... increased cost of hardware, increased set-up difficulty (I have seen very few HT set ups with a CC that blended well), and the oddity that most CCs aren't behind the screen, but rather above or below it (which doesn't anchor the sound where you want it anyway). So, unless you expect a lot of people way off axis, I say skip it and let your L & R front carry the load.

But you should take this with a grain of salt. I had a huge, super high end HT set up at one point in my life. Ultimately, however, I decided I didn't care that much about TV, so now the whole thing has devolved into a nice two channel rig for listening to music only.

[Larry Browning]

I have a couple more random questions On the subject.
1) When I built my house 12 years ago, I thought that one day I might want to put speakers in various parts of the house, so I ran 16ga speaker wire up the wall and into the attic. I have read here and there that 14ga or even 12ga would really make a difference. It would save me quite a bit of trouble and a little expense to not string new wire. So my question is: Will replacing 16ga wire with 14ga really gain me that much in sound quality?

2) I probably should already know this, but do TV shows received over cable broadcast in 5.1 surround sound at least some of the time? Or is surround sound limited to DVDs?