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Thread: Home Theater surround sound setup advice needed

  1. #31
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    First, I will TRY not to be all pesky audiophily as I can see it would be looked at like recommending Felder or Minimax on one of the A/V forums I frequent... sorry.

    Is no one advocating a phantom center concerned about the Re 20s and the fact they are recessed AND covered being able to coherently image the center channel, I can't see it not being unfocused and muddy? Plus the CV is a two way with a 8" woofer and a 1" tweeter and though I don't know the crossover point they beam like crazy. I would suggest something out of the current CV line for a center to at least have a shot at a similar timbre to the Re 20s.

    I will also add a respectful "don't do it" about the Yamaha sub, the Polk and especially the BIC Tim mentioned are much better speakers. I would add the Velodyne VX-11, Definitive Technology Pro Sub 60 and Energy EW100. None of these are going to shake the foundations of the house or reach reference level LFE at 20hz BUT the bass that is there will be SIGNIFICANTLY better than the Yamaha which is a true one note wonder. For a tool analogy think of the Yamaha as Harbor Freight level.

    Warning auiophile/golden ear blasphemy follows!! Regarding wire you are FINE. The only time wire makes an audible difference is with a mid-5 figures speakers made by names most people have never heard of and then only makes a difference when another audiophile is in your home and SEES the cabling and KNOWS you spent $1,000 plus on each set of wires, then and only then will the visiting audiophile wax poetic about the reactive component of capacitance and inductance and beam about the sweetness of the treble. The craziest thing I have ever seen in an actual home was a friend of mine who had a pair of Dynaudio Evidence Masters (over 80K a pair) connected to his amps with Audioquest Everest cabling, the cables were indeed pretty but should be at $9K a pop for a 6 ft pair, each additional FOOT was more than a Grizzly cabinet table saw! He wouldn't take the bet that he couldn't identify them compared to a set of 12 awg zip wire cables 8 out of 10 times. I ask you would any sane person spend 1500 times as much on something they they were not confident they could tell the difference 80% of the time??? Now I will bet you I can identify the Yamaha vs any of the sub $200 subwoofers I listed 99% of the time with music and 90% of the time with a movie as source material.

    Oh and I do understand the preference for spending on video and not audio, my wife has appreciated the increase in every new display and projector I have brought into our house since we have been together, but not once has she been excited about the increase in audio quality. While she understands and can identify macro-blocking, compression artifacts etc, imaging, soundstage and the difference between a metal and silk tweeter are completely lost on her.

    Bottom line if you are happy that is all that matters, audiophiles by and large just hate to see people buy "Harbor Freight" when "Grizzly" is just a few bucks more. Plus, people tend to replace sources, video displays and receivers rather frequently where a good set of speakers can last much of a lifetime. Finally, nobody mentioned Bose in the thread which kindly prevented me from having a stroke!

  2. #32
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    Tim,
    The reason I picked the Yamaha is that in one of the reviews it was stated that it worked well for movies while the Polk did better for music. I will be at least 80/20 movies/music maybe even more movies. Why do you think the Polk is better? Also I am thinking that a 12" would just be overkill for my room. I really don't have the luxury of actually listening to these speakers, due to not having a decent audio store within 100 miles of me. Do you think it would be worth a trip to Tulsa (2 hour drive) to actually listen to some of this stuff? We do have a Best Buy here but I have always found that their sales staff are mostly teenagers who really don't know what they are talking about, but think they do.

    The reason I like Amazon is because I do a lot of business with them, I feel I will get good prompt service from them, I can get free shipping, and their prices are, for the most part, the lowest around.
    Last edited by Larry Browning; 02-02-2011 at 8:16 AM.
    Larry J Browning
    There are 10 kinds of people in this world; Those who understand binary and those who don't.

  3. #33
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    Ok, you guys are about to talk me out of the Yamaha sub. I guess I will start that search all over.

    I am a bit leery of the 12" subwoofers, seems like overkill to me.

    How about this 10" BIC ?

    Also, I was looking at the size of these things. the 12" BIC is 21.8 x 21.8 x 19 vs the 10" 13 x 15 x 16.5 I've seen refrigerators smaller than that 12"! I'm looking for something that won't visually dominate the room quite so much.

    Also, what is the difference between front and down firing? (besides the obvious)
    Last edited by Larry Browning; 02-02-2011 at 8:52 AM.
    Larry J Browning
    There are 10 kinds of people in this world; Those who understand binary and those who don't.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Browning View Post
    Ok, you guys are about to talk me out of the Yamaha sub. I guess I will start that search all over.

    i like the polk over the ymaha based on the fact that the polk offers a BASH amp, which has a proven track record, and in general polk does make excellent drivers.

    I like the bic 12" over the others because 12" is the minimum sized single driver i think you should use in a HT. You have a large-ish room with vaulted ceilings....maybe take some measurements of the various subs and make some mockups out of cardboard.

    I have a dual 12" sealed sub in my HT...it fits nicely in a 12x20 room. I had a 15" LLT in there last year and the wife did not like that one bit.

    Someone made the point that you will have these speakers for ever...best to buy once...isn't that what they say in the woodworking world?

    And as an analogy...you are still in the ryobi or black and decker aisle with your speaker choices...and maybe you might be able to stretch and say you are in the grizzly contractor saw aisle with that receiver purchase...but probably more in the ridgid contractor saw aisle in HD.

  5. #35
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    Jim from Westport, MA here. I wonder if posting a request for another pair of CV RE Series 20 speakers would produce any responses at the Parts Express tech forum? There's a classified section.

    FYI - I have migrated to an all-in-one set from Philips that handles movies. It has much to recommend by way of simplicity and it is (essentially) a large center channel speaker with outboard sub.
    It has a coax digital input that should handle input from your disc player or receiver. Your receiver should allow you to route the signal as chosen. The CVs could be reserved for straight music (2 channel).

    I've been down the road for 5.1 and it's VERY difficult to get set well without a proper center channel speaker.

    http://www.p4c.philips.com/cgi-bin/d...ctn=HTS8100/05

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Huskey View Post
    Is no one advocating a phantom center concerned about the Re 20s and the fact they are recessed AND covered being able to coherently image the center channel, I can't see it not being unfocused and muddy? Plus the CV is a two way with a 8" woofer and a 1" tweeter and though I don't know the crossover point they beam like crazy. I would suggest something out of the current CV line for a center to at least have a shot at a similar timbre to the Re 20s.
    Absent people way off axis, I'll continue to stand by my recommendation that given Larry's existing equipment and budget, he's better off with the CVs in phantom center mode. I'll also reiterate my bottom line on all of these points--he ought to listen himself and decide himself. I've heard things as I've swapped bits out of any number of stereos and HT rigs that have surprised me, some of which I don't quite understand from a physics or acoustics perspective. That said, there is a lot of snake oil out there--don't get me started on Magic Pebbles. Just as an example, I've heard people get super definitive about no one being able to tell the difference between 256 kbps MP3s and WAV files, based on all sorts of mumbo jumbo about psychoacoustic coding and yet even my partially deaf wife can reliably tell the difference in our living room system. Your mileage may differ.

    I've never heard the Re20s, but I've heard CVs and no one will ever convince me that any free speaker built by radio shack is going to compete with that. And if you really think that the presence of grille cloth is going to impact the Re20's ability to image a center channel, I'm going to tell you that's way beyond the average person's hearing. Or did you mean something else by "covered"? So they may beam, that's why I'd say give it a whirl. Sit in the places people might tend to sit while watching a movie. If they are too beamy, they you have an off-axis problem. Is it enough to budget a significant amount for a center channel? Only Larry can judge how often someone is going to be that far out of the sweet spot.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Morton View Post
    i like the polk over the ymaha based on the fact that the polk offers a BASH amp, which has a proven track record, and in general polk does make excellent drivers.

    I like the bic 12" over the others because 12" is the minimum sized single driver i think you should use in a HT. You have a large-ish room with vaulted ceilings....maybe take some measurements of the various subs and make some mockups out of cardboard.

    I have a dual 12" sealed sub in my HT...it fits nicely in a 12x20 room. I had a 15" LLT in there last year and the wife did not like that one bit.

    Someone made the point that you will have these speakers for ever...best to buy once...isn't that what they say in the woodworking world?

    And as an analogy...you are still in the ryobi or black and decker aisle with your speaker choices...and maybe you might be able to stretch and say you are in the grizzly contractor saw aisle with that receiver purchase...but probably more in the ridgid contractor saw aisle in HD.
    Actually I think that I may have mislead you as to the size of my room. Even though when measuring wall to wall it is 16X17 the rooms seating area is only 12x12 There are doorways on every wall and a corner fireplace that takes up quit a bit of the room. There are really only 2 possibilities for the placement of the sub, those being on either side of the tv cabinet. Anyplace else would require running wire across the floor. If I got the 12" I think it would only fit on the left side of the tv cabinet which would make it more visible in the room which the wife would hate.

    I do appreciate your analogies. I do have friends who do not notice the difference between a Harbor Freight table saw and a Felder. When it comes to HT I probably am closer to those guys.
    Larry J Browning
    There are 10 kinds of people in this world; Those who understand binary and those who don't.

  8. #38
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    Gotcha...but keep in mind the sub does not care about the seating area...it will be pressurinzing the entire room...or in this case with all the doors, the entire downstairs.

    So pick a 10" that makes you happy...you should be fine.

  9. #39
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    Does that 10" BIC look reasonable to you? I think it is pretty much the same speaker just in a smaller size. Also, why would I want to get a front firing vs down firing subwoofer? Or does it not make a difference?
    Larry J Browning
    There are 10 kinds of people in this world; Those who understand binary and those who don't.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Van Huskey View Post
    Finally, nobody mentioned Bose in the thread which kindly prevented me from having a stroke!
    Haha I think everyone can see past their marketing nonsense nowdays. I don't know anyone who actively seeks a Bose product these days. Nobody who knows even the slightest bit about A/V would ever recommend Bose (except maybe to their smug enemies or something!) heh... and I have an uncle who builds them!

  11. #41
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    Well, I will cautiously weigh in here ... no audiophile by any respect, but I did go through a HT buying process a little while ago. Several posters above are far more knowledgeable than I, but I can offer a few tidbits they may have overlooked.

    First, the distinction that any speaker is better for "home theater" vs "music". Most of those who dispense such advice never get around to mentioning that the speaker doesn't know if the TV is on or not . A speaker that is best for reproducing musical notes, (even if they are less than 50 Hz) is a better speaker than something that can deliver a monotone "BOOM" whenever it sees something coming through the wire. A similar situation applies for surround speakers: the more "full range" and musical they are, the better they are for faithfully reproducing any sounds, whether it's the background effects of a helicopter in the distance, or the rhythm guitar in "Dark Side of the Moon".

    I would encourage you to go to any store that has a listening room, whether it's a big box or a specialty store, and just listen to a variety of speakers at a variety of price points. You don't have to buy from them, let them know you are just there to listen. If they give you a hard sell, shake their dust from your sandals & move on (it's a buyer's economy). After hearing the difference (or not hearing, YMMV) between the price points, you will have a better idea of what the written reviews are talking about. Even if you end up choosing a $99 subwoofer, at least you will be making an informed choice.

    In audio equipment, there is a lot of low priced junk, that is created with very high profit margins, looking for folks who want to spend the bare minimum. Granted, there is a lot of overpriced equipment as well, that has marginal benefit for those who do not crave the last musical nuance. The trick is to find the sweet spot, which is different for each set of ears, but is absolutely not at the rock-bottom price point.

    Good luck & happy listening!

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Browning View Post
    Does that 10" BIC look reasonable to you? I think it is pretty much the same speaker just in a smaller size. Also, why would I want to get a front firing vs down firing subwoofer? Or does it not make a difference?
    Yes it would be a good option. same bash amp...

    Couldn't sleep so i did a search..this one seemed interesting...and you could get it in cherry. Only thing is it would be an ebat purchase and not sure what your comfort level is with that.

    but there are some nice pics..

    http://forum.blu-ray.com/subwoofers/...rs-thread.html

  13. #43
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    Audiophile chiming in here. To get the most bang for the buck I would look at used components. Audiophiles suffer from the strong desire to upgrade all the time and sell used equipment on Audiogon.com. Speakers...in wall might keep swmbo happy but won't sound like much. I have taken old Klipsch Heresy speakers, replaced the capacitors in the crossovers and re-veneered them so they look great and have been very satisfied. Cost has been about $250 for a pair that sell for over $1,500 new.

    Don't buy Bose. Over hyped, overpriced and poorly engineered.
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    Last edited by Ron Carlton; 02-05-2011 at 9:01 AM.
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  14. #44
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    Actually I have another reason for shopping at amazon. I have over $300 in Amazon gift card money. Some of this is Christmas gifts and the rest is credit card reward money.
    Larry J Browning
    There are 10 kinds of people in this world; Those who understand binary and those who don't.

  15. #45
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    BTW on a slightly differnet subject. Has anyone used Vudu to stream movies? I signed up last night and watched RED in HD. (good movie BTW) I was really impressed with the picture quality. They seem to have all the latest movies for rent in 3 quality levels SD, HD and something they call HDX which is supposed to be 1080p and Dolby digital 5.1 sound ($3.99,$4.99 & $5.99). I watched a demo video in HDX quality and it looked to me to be just as good as a blu-ray disk. The HD quality was very good as well. Anyway I was just wondering what others thought of vudu.
    Larry J Browning
    There are 10 kinds of people in this world; Those who understand binary and those who don't.

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