Solid wood flooring nailers - cleats vs. staples

[Rob Wright]

I have been going crazy this morning trying to find a thread I read in the last month concerning using a flooring nailer to install solid wood flooring. The discussion was on using a manual nailer or going to a cheaper Harbor Freight pneumatic nailer to install the flooring. There was also discussion on using cleats vs. staples. The last post I read had someone suggesting just grab a handful of spiral nails and a nailset and go at it. I am failing at the new forum's search function!

I have rented a manual porta-nailer before from the Orange borg - but the installs were about 200sf (kitchens) and I could do it in a day by myself. I am committed now to installing 1000sf in a basement and I know it is going to take a month of Sundays for me to complete the job.

I am installing Platon and 3/4" tongue and groove 3/4" OSB over the slab per the recommendations. I am installing 3/4" cherry unfinished. I need to use a 1.5" fastener to prevent any puncturing of the vapor barrier.

I had read some good reviews of people using these from Amazon :

http://www.amazon.com/NuMax-SFL618BR...486480&sr=8-12

or

http://www.amazon.com/Ramsond-RMM4-H...6486480&sr=8-2

or the HF one with an additional 20% off coupon? http://www.harborfreight.com/3-in-1-...ler-99640.html

I have the following questions:

Cleats or Staples?
What nailer? Amazon or Harbor Freight?
Face nailing the first row - 16ga or 15ga?

Thanks guys!

[james glenn]

I like the manual nailers with the rachet feature because you don't need one big whack all the time. Plus, I have taking a 6" bow out of a piece
with just by working the strip along. After the first day my arm was dead, but after the second, I was used to it. I also prefer the cleats to staples.
Have had some issues with them in the past not holding as tight as the cleats did. But that might be a difference in manual vs air. Not sure.

One trick to the first few pieces I did. Try to face nail where the baseboard is going to cover, then finish nail 16ga in the tongue just like
the floor nailer. My Bosch nailer has a 'V' tip that helped fit the tip to the tongue (sounds like fun).

The first piece I actually drilled the tongue and hammered a finish nails in. 500+sf and not one nail showing. A nice clean look.

Just my 2cents though.

[George Bregar]

I used staples for almost the exact same situation...Delta FL (similar product to Platon) over 3/4" T&G OSB...3/4" oak hardwood. If memory serves 1-1/2" staples so I wouldn't penetrate the Delta-FL. I face nailed 15 Ga and wasn't worried about hiding them as this was for my shop. All I know is on a few misfires those staples were a b*tch to remove. I can't image them failing. It was more economical to buy mor than I needed so IIRC I spaced the staples 8-10". No loose boards in about two years.

[Rob Wright]

I used staples for almost the exact same situation...Delta FL (similar product to Platon) over 3/4" T&G OSB...3/4" oak hardwood. If memory serves 1-1/2" staples so I wouldn't penetrate the Delta-FL. I face nailed 15 Ga and wasn't worried about hiding them as this was for my shop. All I know is on a few misfires those staples were a b*tch to remove. I can't image them failing. It was more economical to buy mor than I needed so IIRC I spaced the staples 8-10". No loose boards in about two years.

George - I am basing a lot of what I am doing from your shop thread from last year. Thnaks for the input - ordered my edge tape and snapcons from Amazon and should have them today. Just got a flier in the mail from HF with the SDS drill on sale for $59.99.

[George Bregar]

George - I am basing a lot of what I am doing from your shop thread from last year. Thnaks for the input - ordered my edge tape and snapcons from Amazon and should have them today. Just got a flier in the mail from HF with the SDS drill on sale for $59.99.

That HF SDS Hammer drill worked out great for me...I think I also paid $60. While I'm sure it's not the best SDS out there it worked fine for me and now I have one...won't get a lot of use. Get some extra drill bits and also make sure you have a torguey drill. I snapped off a lot of tapcons (yeah, I call 'em snapcons too) because every time the drill would bog...snap. I rented a Milwaukee corded drill that had the ooomph to drive the snapcon all the way flush and life got easier. 1000 sf? You will have a new appreciation for not being a professional floor installer

[Neil Bosdet]

I have the following questions:

Cleats or Staples?
What nailer? Amazon or Harbor Freight?
Face nailing the first row - 16ga or 15ga?

Thanks guys!

I would get the cleat nailer. Manufacturers of many hardwood floors now won't warranty if staples are used. This is due to increased splitting on the higher density exotics. I have a stapler and have never had a problem but if I were to repurchase now I would get the nailer.

I looked at the options you presented there and I would purchase the Ramsond. Lots of good reviews and great price.

Like the other fellow suggested, if you can nail under a baseboard and then through the tongue, you're set. I usually glue my first and sometimes second row. Wait till the next day and continue. This holds things firm. The nailers have a lot of force and you can throw your alignment out easier than you'd think when the first row is held with 15 or 16 gauge nails.

[Rob Wright]

I would get the cleat nailer. Manufacturers of many hardwood floors now won't warranty if staples are used. This is due to increased splitting on the higher density exotics. I have a stapler and have never had a problem but if I were to repurchase now I would get the nailer.

I looked at the options you presented there and I would purchase the Ramsond. Lots of good reviews and great price.

Like the other fellow suggested, if you can nail under a baseboard and then through the tongue, you're set. I usually glue my first and sometimes second row. Wait till the next day and continue. This holds things firm. The nailers have a lot of force and you can throw your alignment out easier than you'd think when the first row is held with 15 or 16 gauge nails.

Any concerns with cleats vs. staples into the OSB?

Also - should I put red rosin paper or felt on the OSB prior to installing the flooring? Any downside to the felt(tar paper) in an inside living space situation? I have used red rosin in the past.

[Neil Bosdet]

Any concerns with cleats vs. staples into the OSB?

Also - should I put red rosin paper or felt on the OSB prior to installing the flooring? Any downside to the felt(tar paper) in an inside living space situation? I have used red rosin in the past.

Subfloors are plywood or OSB so no concerns with cleats in OSB. Tar paper will off gas for a while. I used a wax paper under a reclaimed floor and I don't think I'd ever do it again. If you ever have a need to inject some glue between a split or gap it will be useless with a paper layer between. Doubtful this will be a concern with a manufactured floor but I'm just saying. Clean your floor well and go at it.

[Alan Schaffter]

I just started laying oak flooring in a 200 sq. ft. bedroom addition so haven't done enough to to really give a thorough report (my first flooring experience). I looked at the price of the Bostich and others and figured, for just one job and maybe my shop (if/when my ship comes in) I'd just go with the HF pneumatic nailer. It looks identical to a number of the Chiwanese nailers. It is sweet! A tap with the mallet and those boards are rammed home and anchored securely. I can't say how it will do with a heavily bowed board.

My house has about 3000 sq. ft. of white oak floors. The installer used "L" cleats and tar paper. I am using cleats too, but opted for the rosin paper because the roll was lighter, cleaner, and cheaper. I've heard some folks use newspaper- the ink helps the boards slide. The underlayment in my house is Advantech- really tough stuff. It is a wafer board like OSB but smaller flakes, more binder, much denser, smoother surface, etc. than OSB. As tough as it is, the cleats penetrated it easily with the air set at 100 psi. Contrary to my original thoughts, this is going to be fun!

The only tough parts so far were two areas I needed to weave to avoid a long butt seam- it was kind of a pain to get the old boards out (I used a drill and chisels) in a staggered manner and fit the new ones in.

I'll be looking for recommendations on sanders- anyone use the commercial units that have a rectangular base that contains a number of smaller ROS pads? They are supposedly easier to handle and have better dust collection than the old drum type.

IMG_3632r.jpgIMG_3559r.jpgIMG_3629r.jpg

[Josiah Bartlett]

I'll be looking for recommendations on sanders- anyone use the commercial units that have a rectangular base that contains a number of smaller ROS pads? They are supposedly easier to handle and have better dust collection than the old drum type.

Based on recommendations from my neighbor who has redone his whole house with both refinishing and a new floor, get the drum sander for a virgin floor. A lot of what you are doing is leveling and the 4 disc sanders aren't aggressive enough to level.

[Neal Clayton]

Based on recommendations from my neighbor who has redone his whole house with both refinishing and a new floor, get the drum sander for a virgin floor. A lot of what you are doing is leveling and the 4 disc sanders aren't aggressive enough to level.

that pretty much is accurate. if you're doing an old floor and don't care about level, the random orbital sanders will evenly sand it, but not make it even.

for that they are more forgiving as well, you can't easily 'dig a hole' with the random orbital ones.

but they are not as fast as a drum sander and will not level the floor very well.

when you get to finishing do yourself a favor and skip those rollers and sponges too, use a real lambswool mop. there is a difference.

the borg has lambswool mops in the tool rental section.

[Robert MacKinnon]

Noob question regarding flooring. I'm planning on installing 3/4" oak solid wood flooring on the main floor of my house. The old flooring has been stripped off, down to the 1x6 subfloor. Joists are (real) 2x8 on 16" centres. I'm planning on laying down 3/8" plywood over the existing subfloor, using construction cement and wood screws into the joists to tighten down and strengthen the base. Is this adequate for the job or should I go with a thicker ply?

Thanks.

[Neil Bosdet]

This is a "can of worms" question. Is there much bounce on the 1x6 subfloor? I guess the simple answer is you'd be best to lay 3/4" T&G ply down first to get the structural strength you may not have at this time. Bounce caused by 2x8 joists will not be corrected by this. If you have bounce caused by the joists you can add spacers between them to significantly improve this. Back to the flooring: adding 3/4" T&G ply may bring your whole floor up too much. Does this new wood floor you're going to lay butt up to another flooring? If so, what distance is this floor from the 1x6 subfloor to the surface? Having floors at different heights is not the end of the world but can be annoying and a bit of a trip hazard. If you can avoid it you should.

[Ryan Baker]

Robert, I recently did flooring in pretty much exactly the same situation. I used 3/8" ply over the board subfloor, like you are suggesting, and it works fine. Most likely it will be fine for you too with 3/4" solid hardwood over it. Secure it well and it makes a pretty strong sandwich. I would consider that the minimum though. I did that instead of 3/4 ply because of matching floor heights. If you have the room to use 3/4" ply, I would do it.

As for the earlier part of this thread, I also have the Ramsond nailer and recommend it. Works great. Definitely air over manual. Definitely cleats over staples. Definitely use the rosin paper (or something equivalent) to avoid squeaks. And I don't know what kind of OSB other people have, but there is no way I would ever use OSB under a hardwood floor. Every piece of OSB i've ever come across won't hold floor nails for very long before the squeaks will start.

[Larry Edgerton]

And I don't know what kind of OSB other people have, but there is no way I would ever use OSB under a hardwood floor. Every piece of OSB i've ever come across won't hold floor nails for very long before the squeaks will start.

Actually, all OSB is not created equal. Most manufacturers have a premium water resistant OSB that is a much better product. This stuff can be soaked for weeks during construction and not be affected. Many of the flooring manufacturers will not warrenty their product when put over regular OSB, but will when installed on the premium. It is much heavier.

I use it on every home I build as it ends up being cheaper for me in the end. In this climate I know the floor is going to get wet. On my own house I am building now it was under water for three weeks. Not a swollen joint, and the face is still smooth.

As to the original question, you made the right choice in fasteners in my opinion.

Larry