Solid wood flooring nailers - cleats vs. staples

[Mike Roberts]

When I did my house I started here and found a brand new PC nailer on CL for 200 bucks. These guys can answer all of your questions.

http://www.thefloorpro.com/community/

Mike

Go Pack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MARK D Sullivan]

I prefer the cleats over the staples. If you do have a slightly crooked board the staples don't seem to pull it as tight as the cleats do. Red rosin paper will be fine but we have switched to a paper vapor barrier because there is one less thing to worry about I cannot remember the brand right now. On a new install you will need a drum sander the 220 if you can find them otherwise the 110 will work just not as efficient also you will have to screen the floor very well to get rid of some chatter. ( sander marks in the floor) If you do glue the first couple of rows like has been mentioned do not glue the ending rows because there will be no room for the floor to move. If a raw wood just nail the first rows the filler will cover if there are any nailholes. If prefinished we usually nail the first rows and glue the last if nailholes are a concern. Mark

[hank dekeyser]

The HF unit works just fine - buy it on sale w/ 20% off coupon, get the ext warranty just in case (good selling point when you re-sell it after this job) Use staples, plenty of holding power -PITA to get out if you mess up a board though. Tar paper was used for just about everything back in the day (newspaper cuz it's cheaper ??? are ya nuts) - Use rosin paper, hammer tack it down. Personally I leave the sanding and finishing to the pros - THAT is the one thing that will make your floor look like its supposed to look or - look like "you can do it, we can help" A poor finish job will haunt you forever ! Have fun, 1000 ft is a lot to do.

[Curt Harms]

We did this recently. Found a site (don't remember which one but it was like an industry/trade site) and they recommended cleats on hardwood, staples on engineered flooring. The HF nailer was fine shooting PortaNails cleats. The HF gun and its clones will shoot either staples or cleats. Don't be bashful with the oil if you get the HF; I was getting a few misfires and once I started oiling 3 or 4 drops every time I reloaded the gun, the misfires went away.

[Rob Wright]

Thanks guys for all the input and suggestions. I will already have a vapor barrier down with the use of the Platon on top of the slab, then the 3/4" T&G OSB. I am still deciding of I need the Red Rosin on top of the OSB still since it is not acting as a Vapor barrier. It's not going to cost too much so i should just do it I suppose.

Ya - a 1000 sq ft is going to take some time - the wife is busy at night with school, so i figured I need something to do to keep me occupied for the next 2 months! Go down and do 50 to 100 a night for a few weeks when I have some time. One of the other reasons to just buy the nailer - renting really wasn't going to be an option.

I have to get the 32 sheets of OSB that got dropped off yesterday in the snow storm down into the basement now. I need to pull them through a window into the basement - hope I can sucker a neighbor to come and help me. Maybe they will get sick of looking at the wood in my driveway and volunteer to come over and help! I can only wish.... this is going to cost me more than a handful of beers I am sure!

[David Helm]

As a former professional floor installer (all hardwoods) my answer to your questions are 1) Don't use staples, old technology that has, in my opinion, always proved inadequate. 2) Use the red rosin paper to help avoid squeaks. Much of what has been said here is good advice.

[Rob Wright]

David - Thank you. I have decided on the Red rosin paper and "L" cleats. Attaching the OSB to clean concrete with 2-3/4" snapcons - 15 per sheet. Let the fun begin

[Jim Andrew]

Before you start putting flooring down over osb, drive a nail in the osb and pull it out, to test its holding power. My experience is that plywood holds a lot better. Maybe you have some kind that holds better than the stuff I used. But test it. Then make up your mind about fasteners. I used adhesive on flooring over osb, as well as nailing it.

[Neal Clayton]

Based on recommendations from my neighbor who has redone his whole house with both refinishing and a new floor, get the drum sander for a virgin floor. A lot of what you are doing is leveling and the 4 disc sanders aren't aggressive enough to level.

that pretty much is accurate. if you're doing an old floor and don't care about level, the random orbital sanders will evenly sand it, but not make it even.

for that they are more forgiving as well, you can't easily 'dig a hole' with the random orbital ones.

but they are not as fast as a drum sander and will not level the floor very well.

when you get to finishing do yourself a favor and skip those rollers and sponges too, use a real lambswool mop. there is a difference.

the borg has lambswool mops in the tool rental section.

[Robert MacKinnon]

Noob question regarding flooring. I'm planning on installing 3/4" oak solid wood flooring on the main floor of my house. The old flooring has been stripped off, down to the 1x6 subfloor. Joists are (real) 2x8 on 16" centres. I'm planning on laying down 3/8" plywood over the existing subfloor, using construction cement and wood screws into the joists to tighten down and strengthen the base. Is this adequate for the job or should I go with a thicker ply?

Thanks.

[Neil Bosdet]

This is a "can of worms" question. Is there much bounce on the 1x6 subfloor? I guess the simple answer is you'd be best to lay 3/4" T&G ply down first to get the structural strength you may not have at this time. Bounce caused by 2x8 joists will not be corrected by this. If you have bounce caused by the joists you can add spacers between them to significantly improve this. Back to the flooring: adding 3/4" T&G ply may bring your whole floor up too much. Does this new wood floor you're going to lay butt up to another flooring? If so, what distance is this floor from the 1x6 subfloor to the surface? Having floors at different heights is not the end of the world but can be annoying and a bit of a trip hazard. If you can avoid it you should.

[Ryan Baker]

Robert, I recently did flooring in pretty much exactly the same situation. I used 3/8" ply over the board subfloor, like you are suggesting, and it works fine. Most likely it will be fine for you too with 3/4" solid hardwood over it. Secure it well and it makes a pretty strong sandwich. I would consider that the minimum though. I did that instead of 3/4 ply because of matching floor heights. If you have the room to use 3/4" ply, I would do it.

As for the earlier part of this thread, I also have the Ramsond nailer and recommend it. Works great. Definitely air over manual. Definitely cleats over staples. Definitely use the rosin paper (or something equivalent) to avoid squeaks. And I don't know what kind of OSB other people have, but there is no way I would ever use OSB under a hardwood floor. Every piece of OSB i've ever come across won't hold floor nails for very long before the squeaks will start.

[Larry Edgerton]

And I don't know what kind of OSB other people have, but there is no way I would ever use OSB under a hardwood floor. Every piece of OSB i've ever come across won't hold floor nails for very long before the squeaks will start.

Actually, all OSB is not created equal. Most manufacturers have a premium water resistant OSB that is a much better product. This stuff can be soaked for weeks during construction and not be affected. Many of the flooring manufacturers will not warrenty their product when put over regular OSB, but will when installed on the premium. It is much heavier.

I use it on every home I build as it ends up being cheaper for me in the end. In this climate I know the floor is going to get wet. On my own house I am building now it was under water for three weeks. Not a swollen joint, and the face is still smooth.

As to the original question, you made the right choice in fasteners in my opinion.

Larry

[Robert MacKinnon]

This is a "can of worms" question. Is there much bounce on the 1x6 subfloor?

Thanks for the reply Neil. The floor integrity is quite fine; it's not because of poor structural integrity that I am considering this subfloor strengthening. I might have been misleading in my post. The 2x8 joists are in great shape. The original installation is missing nails in some floorboards causing them to be loose. The floor "bounces" in these areas because there is nothing to hold the subfloor board to the joist. But moreover, the original floor used to squeak in these areas. I could screw down the loose boards to the joists but there is another overriding concern I have. The new installation will have half the floor with 3/4" T&G solid hardwood flooring and the other half will be 17x17 porcelain tile. I'm going to use Ditra on the tile floor but it was recommended to me by a couple of tile installers to strengthen the foor in the areas where the tile will be laid to prevent cracking of the tiles in future. Since I would consider adding this ply overlay primarily for the tile floor, it is a no-brainer to continue the ply overlay into the hardwood floor areas (1) to reduce the chance of floor squeaks and (2) to create a uniform subfloor surface throughout the project area.

My question was addressing my concern that I would be using a sufficiently strong ply product to achieve my goals. Is that explanation clearer?

[Ben Abate]

Jeff is correct about feeling the effects for a few days and you'll have a tough time holding your coffee cup the next morning. My suggestion is to buy the Habor Freight air flooring nailer. I recently did a 400 sq ft floor for a friend, he rented a Bostich nailer and it was so beat we couldn't get it to work. We went and bought a HF air flooring nailer and it worked great and the price is right. Hey sell the gun afterwards. If I were doing flooring for a living I would go with a big name nailer but for an occasionally flooring job the HF is fine and you'll be able to hold your coffee cup come the next morning. No kidding if you've never have used a manual floor nailer before you're in for a surprise in a work out. YOU Got to swing that hammer pretty good all day long....did my share of manual flooring hammering

enjoy, great feeling when you're all finished and it looks so good
Ben