Detached shop (Add bathroom or not?)

[Wes Billups]

Thanks for all the responses. My ultimate decision will greatly depend on what else we do. If we don't run a trench for natural gas, I'm stuck with electric or propane for heat. Since we use natural gas to heat the house I hate adding a propane tank and paying the extra. The only quote I've received for the gas line was $2000. My thought is it shouldn't be that much more to add a water line to the same trench. Then while we've got the trencher it would make sense to run a second trench to the septic system. The quotes are high but I'm thinking I may be able to do some of the work and get it down to $5-6000.

The plan would be to have a shower as well as toilet and sink since it'll double to be used for the pool.

I think I need to talk with a plumber as I'm not sure either of the general contractors took the time to get more accurate quotes. Their numbers seemed to be awfully round. One was $12,000 and the other was $14,000.

Thanks,
Wes

[Bruce Wrenn]

First the septic system is usually sized based upon the number of bedrooms in a house. This is the best determiner of actual usage. Why not put a sump in and run effluent back to septic system using a "grinder pump." A "grinder pump" allows the use of lines as small as 1 1/2", though you will most likely need to use 2". Because its a "forced flow" you don't have to adhere to rate of fall tables (usually 1/4" per foot.) It only has to flow down hill. Run the gas line, and you will save a lot of money on heating shop. Seriously consider using hydronic heat in the floor. If shop roof allows, you could supplement the gas WH, which furnishes both domestic (bathroom) and radiant heat with solar panels. Usually gas is run independent of other utilities. Have you contacted local gas supplier about running the gas line. Utilities (gas company) are usually exempt from both permitting and inspection.They often do this at cost, or less, just to sell more gas. $12,000 seems a little ( a heck of a lot) high to me.

[John Lifer]

No way would I spend that much on bathroom... Didn't add one to my shop. It's 125-140 ft to the house. But I'm in country and I can water the back grass just fine.
Would be nice addition.... The water would be my problem. Then keeping shop heated enough not to freeze in winter. I'd run a makeshift septic tank for the limited use. But it wouldn't be kosher in the city or subdivision.

[Jim Laumann]

Ah - a subject I thought about when I built my shed - and gave up on it.

My shop is about 125-130' from the house. I live in a rural area - so I would have to had a full septic system - which now days must be a mound system. $15K for one of those is "cheap" - most are closer to $20-22K. No option to tie in to the house system - its on the wrong side of the house. I did get a grey water system put in - basicly a trench w/ drain file filled w/ rock - I have the floor drain running in to it, and a drain line for a scrub sink. The grey water system and a frost proof hydrant for water set me back about a $1000 (7 yrs ago).

As for now, I can step behind the shed, or head to the house when answering the call of nature.

A toilet may be a "need" some day, and if that day comes, it will be a composting toilet. They run $800-1000 depending on size (number of people its designed to handle).

Jim

[Norman Hitt]

Wes, unless you would have to dig the trench/trenches through rock, you can rent a trencher for about $250/day and dig them yourself. Heck, you could even dig THREE trenches if it was mandatory, in one day. You could then use the PEX plastic pipe that comes in a roll, white or blue PEX water line and the Yellow Gas PEX line, and you could even install the 4" PVC or ABS Sewer line in the ditches. Hire the plumber do the work in the shop and make the connections at the shop and the house tp the lines you put in. This should reduce the costs substantially.

[Joe Watson]

I think I need to talk with a plumber as I'm not sure either of the general contractors took the time to get more accurate quotes. Their numbers seemed to be awfully round. One was $12,000 and the other was $14,000.

Two years ago i put on a 22x22 addition to my house, master bedroom on top a full basement (basement will be my work shop).
Did all the work myself except for the excavation, masonry and shingles. While calling around general contractors for bids on the excavation and masonry i discovered a general contractor makes big bucks for doing the foot work you can do. Just on the excavation and masonry work i saved around 5,000 by being my own GC. Excavators know masons and vis-versa (all "them guys" know each other, and can point you to people they have worked with in the past). I would suggest you do some research and call around yourself. The hardest part (and it was a pain) is scheduling. Getting everything lined up on time; footings dug, footings poured, inspections; walls formed, slab prepped, inspection and dealing with the rain was tough, but well worth it to me, plus you learn alot if you have never done it before.

12k for a bathroom sounds like a lot to me (i put in a 12x6 bath, fully tiled shower and floor, used pex just about every where, pvc drain, etc. and spent around 1-1500 to completion (tied drain into current house septic)), but maybe you have an odd drainage for your septic.

But, i know if i every had a shop which was not connected to my house and the local building codes let the home owner do the work, i would have a bathroom in the shop.

Good luck in what ever you decide.

_

[Josh Bowman]

Wes, my shop is detached and I did put a bath in. Since I did most all of it myself the cost for nominal. I even have a shower, but it just gets stuff piled in it for storage. Even with that I still would put the shower in, it only cost me 100 to 150 bucks for the "damaged" shower and a valve. I fretted over the hot water until at Lowes or Home Depot, I found a small tank 110 volt hot water heater. It's only a couple of gallons, if that. It will give you enough hot water to take a quick continous shower.....if you drop the soap, don't take time to pick it up or you'll get cold water, but it works fine. I didn't put a sink in the bath but rather a utility sink in the shop behind the bath. The hot water is more that enough for that. The drain pipe, supply, power, gas etc., all went into a common wide and deep trench. The shop build turned into a "might as well" project that included upgrading my houses electric to a 400 amp service (two 200 amp boxes). Having that trench dug allowed access to the houses utilities since it went right by the shop. The drain for the shop is the shallowest pipe in the trench and continues past my house and with a saddle connection I tapped into the septics main pipe. In our area it is allowable to have all these utilities in the same trench, if there is the correct depth and distance met.
Bottom line since I had a trench passing the shop going to the house and since all I had to do was extend a shallow trench to the septic tank, the cost of my bath was the price of PVC pipe. I also put a gas line to the shop for an old central split unit AC/gas furnace. My local gas company had no problem with me intalling the line as long as they furnished the pipe and fittings and I used the goop they recommended on the fittings, the pipe amounted to some kind of metal to plastic "weld" that they did and charged me about 100 bucks. A good friend of mine is a real plumber and he gave me advise. I did goof up and did not dig the drain out of the shop deep enough, after some quick reordering of the shower and toliet we corrected the problem and it works great. My bath also services a pool and it's really nice to just open it up and folks can come in wet and just do there business and leave, the unsealed concrete just absorbs the water.
Good luck, have fun and take lots and lots of pictures of were you bury stuff, they will be worth gold to you in the future. When you take the pictures use a ruler or 2x4 with foot markings on it to locate key stuff to the cornor of the buildings/trees/things that don't move.

[Chris Fournier]

I've had two shops without a bathroom and my last shop has a bathroom - what a treat. No neck breaking runs to the house over ice and snow. No toilet dance at the back door as I fumble for the keys. This being said you are talking about a lot of money for the convenience unless you think that this out building is worth $15,000 more at resale time because it has a bathroom. Having water in the shop is very useful for many reasons other than the toilet.

The bathroom is a perfect place for your FWW and Raod & Track back issues.

[paul cottingham]

I put a bathroom in my basement 2 years ago for 5,000 fixtures in. The reason I mention it in this context is my sewer is above grade in my basement, so i had to dig all the way to the back of my yard to get enough drop. We did all the work except excavating and final plumbing hookup. I would have done the same for a detached shop....but my bladder kinda demands that.

[Scott T Smith]

My shop is 600' from my house, and it has a bathroom (with a urinal) along with radiant heating in the floor. Radiant heating is GREAT.

I find that I use the shop sink multiple times a day, and I would not want to be without it. I use the urinal several times a day as well, and rarely the toilet. I have yet to use the shower. The toilet is plumbed into a lift station that pumps the effluent to an existing septic tank, the sinks and urinal are on a "grey water" system that feeds a red oak tree.

The urinal was $35.00 used, plus another $135.00 for the valve. The laundry sink and associated valves was about $100.00. The sink and shower were ones that I picked up used, and have about $150.00 in them; primarily for the new plumbing. The water heater was new.

12K sounds high to me, but without question I would recommend at least a sink in the shop, and a urinal would be nice as well. You could probably use a grey water drain system for both, and skip the cost associated with a toilet, and do this for relatively low cost.

[Rick Moyer]

Scott, although I often prefer the outdoor facilities, grey water is restricted to waste water from sinks and the like, not urinals. That would be black water in most jurisdictions, would be required to run to the septic system.

[Jim Rimmer]

I had a detached shop built in '96 (so consider that when I mention prices). I had a water line run 100 ft for $1/ft. Gas line (propane) had to go by the shop anyway so got a free tee into the shop for a Dearborn stove. No hot water or bathroom but I picked up a slightly damaged sink at BORG for $10. Got the guy trenching for water to trench a gray water line for next to nothing and I laid the PVC. I loved having a sink for paint/finishing clean up; was close enough that bathroom wasn't needed (plastic bottles on hand). Would love to have the same set up again.

$15K seems awfully high to me.

[David Prince]

$12,000 for the bathroom. Divide that by 365 days in a year figuring that you might use the toilet once a day on average for a shop environment. That is $32.88. Now spread that out over 30 years and you have $1.10 per flush. Is it worth that? After 30 years you might have to upgrade the septic and start all over again.

My shop is a half mile from my house, so I needed indoor plumbing, but if it were closer, I would probably try to skip it.

If money is no object, then I would put it in for the convenience.

[Kevin Neal]

In answer to question #4 - Yes, water and gas lines can occupy the same trench. However, don't put sewer and gas lines in the same trench. Those need to be separated by a minimum 5 feet of undisturbed soil.

Water and gas are both pressurized systems. In the event of a leak, gas will not be able to infiltrate into the water line. Actually, since you are talking about a customer side gas line, your gas pressure is likely 8 ounces or less which means that the weight of the water would easily overcome the gas pressure and you would flood the gas line instead. Low pressure gas lines can get flooded just from heavy rains if there is a crack in the pipe.

Sewer on the other hand is a negative pressure, or atmospheric pressure, system. If you put a sewer line and a gas line next to each other, and have a leak in your gas line, it will seek out the path of least resistance. That would be the nice, big, open sewer line that leads right up into your shop or house. That's a good way to blow up your shop. If you have to cross a sewer line with a gas line, the gas should be on top (gas is lighter than air and will try to rise).

PE plastic pipe is the best way to go for natural gas. Do not use PVC for gas as it will become brittle. Also, make sure you bury a piece of copper wire along with your pipe so that it can be located in the future.

[Steve Ryan]

Will there be a refrigerator with cold beer in it? Answer to that should steer you in the right direction.