Struggles of finishing walnut sapwood. Please help.

[Tyson Burnett]

Hello Sawmill Creek. I am a new member to this website and joined after reading and discovering all the valuable info all of you members provide. Thanks!

I was doing research in the SMC archives on finishing walnut sapwood and didn't quite find what I was looking for. What i did find is that kiln dried and steamed walnut can be finished to a uniform color. Some people are suggesting using a tint to stain just the sapwood, but then after aging some noticeable differences occur.

I am working on a jobsite trimming out a home with walnut casing and base trying to match was was done last year by another guy who is not suppling me with much info on what he did to get the walnut uniform. I don't know if the walnut he used was steamed or not. The walnut that I am using is just kiln dried but not steamed, got it from a local guy and the wood is full of sapwood that I can't waste.

What I do know is that he used cordovan to stain the wood and used a vinyl sealer with a catalyst, then for the top coat a coversion varnish with catalyst. Not sure if the sealer came before the stain, assuming so. However this can only be sprayed and I am not set up to spray, all has to be done by brush or rags.

So after talking with a few people I was told that I could put a sanding sealer on first (all the wood, not just sapwood), stain the wood with cordovan, which actually stains the sanding sealer, not really the wood, then finish it with a poly.

This trimwork does not have to be of furniture quality finishing, but still look uniform and match as closely as possible to the existing.

So after all this I am asking any of you who may have some advice to help. Here is a list of my questions.

1. can I apply a sanding sealer of some sort to the wood, stain it, then varnish is to get a good finish?

2. if so what type of sanding sealer would be best?

3. can anyone help out with what vinyl sealer with a catalyst and coversion varnish with catalyst is, and is there a product that is similar that can be brushed or raged?

4. Any other suggestions that I may not have asked or covered on how to make the trim look great.

Thanks for any help. I know many of you are experts on finishing and will have some good advice.

Cheers,
Tyson

[Jamie Schmitz]

If you have to brush your only real choice is going to be brushing lacquer. The water based and oil based finishes can be brushed also but might not give you the appropriate clarity to match everything else. For staining I would suggest going slowly and doing really thinned down multiple coats of your choice. Be careful using analine dyes if it is in a sunny area of the house because they are not as fade resistant. Old Masters makes really good wiping stains which give great results.

[Steve Schoene]

First, why isn't the previous guy doing the rest of the trim?

Forget sanding sealer. No reason to seal walnut before staining, it takes stain well. And, by and large the catalyzed finishes are made for spraying, and over kill for most trim.

Now for color--first thing is to pull off a piece or two of his trim and look at the back. I must say cordovan (a reddish purple color) surely isn't what I think about for Walnut. I tend to dye walnut with a yellow dye to liven it up and give it a more antique look. Clearly the opposite way this guy had gone. Jamie's Old Masters suggestion is good.

You can stain or dye only the sapwood to even out color. Then use a pigment stain over the entire surface. The pigment, even if not so much as to obscure the wood, does tend to slow the apparent color changes of the walnut over time. Walnut lightens and becomes more amber over time, so if the sapwood starts a little lighter the heartwood will lighten more than the stained sapwood. In trim that won't be noticeable, and in any event will happen quite gradually. But, since you are doing this for pay, the extra time you spend tinkering with the staining may cost more than leaving sapwood in the scrap bin. People who spec. walnut for trim, must surely be expecting a healthy price tag anyway.

I can t see that there are major clarity differences between lacquer, waterborne and oil based finishes that would be noticiable on trim. There are significant color differences that would need to be considered in putting together the stain schedule.

[Scott Holmes]

I did a finishing job that had 20% plus of walnut sapwood. See pictures in my album. (click on my name to get to my info).

I used transTint dye. I sprayed it, but you can wipe dye on. Use water to make the dye (instead of denatured alcohol that I used) a better way for your first time with dye. Artist brushes can really help to dye the sapwood only.

[Tyson Burnett]

[QUOTE=

Forget sanding sealer. No reason to seal walnut before staining, it takes stain well. And, by and large the catalyzed finishes are made for spraying, and over kill for most trim.

[/QUOTE]

I realize that walnut takes stain well, but this may be the reason for the sealer with the sap and heartwood contrast. I heard that if it's sealed then stained, then top coat, that the sealer creates a new surface for the stain to be applied to that will then inturn give it a uniform finish over all sap and heartwood. Any thoughts on that?

[Tyson Burnett]

Scott- So you are saying to only dye the sapwood? My only issue is that I have to match the rest of the trim in the house and he used cordovan stain. So would you suggest just using the cordovan on the sapwood or the whole peice? BTW you walnut work looks amazing.

[Scott Holmes]

You can dye just the sap wood to get it close to the heartwood then use the stain over the entire piece. Dye will not seal the wood so the stain will still do what it's supposed to do.

[John TenEyck]

+1 on what Scott said. Dye then stain. Make samples first of course so you can get the concentration of the dye right and work out the procedure.

[Chris Fournier]

Honestly if you sit down and crunch the numbers you'd be way better off to eat the sapwood at the milling stage and just take it out of the equation. If you are a talented colour man you can get the job to look right on day one but that isn't going to make the customer happy for long. What's going to happen when the heartwood fades with exposure to UVs and the dyed sapwood fades differently? A call back is what's gonna happen. If you can't turn the sapwood to a back face then cut it out, you won't make money hiding sapwood in walnut. While walnut is pretty dear in price you can easily buy nice stock that has very little sapwood, especially in the US. Don't try to save money putting lipstick on a pig - it never pays.

I say this as someone who enjoys finishing challenges but needs to make money!

[Tony Bilello]

.... Don't try to save money putting lipstick on a pig - it never pays.

I say this as someone who enjoys finishing challenges but needs to make money!

+ 1

Cheaping out rarely ever pays off.

[Pete McMahon]

[quote]Now for color--first thing is to pull off a piece or two of his trim and look at the back. I must say cordovan (a reddish purple color) surely isn't what I think about for Walnut. I tend to dye walnut with a yellow dye to liven it up and give it a more antique look. [\QUOTE]

Steve,

What do you mean by "liven it up" after the yellow? That's a bit ambiguous. What do you use to "liven it up"? Just an opinion but you don't know much about color. If you used a yellow dye and then did a reddish purple it would produce a deep warm brown. Use the yellow and hit it with a pale purple glaze and you'd have a rich neutral brown. Nothing new really, just basic color theory.

[Chris Padilla]

Pete,

Seems to me a lot of folks like to use amber shellac over walnut. Hitting it with a yellow dye is probably akin to that. I don't do either and just usually dye my walnut to get everything a nice even chocolate color (as my wife calls it) and then clear shellac.

[Pete McMahon]

Chris,
Hitting it with a yellow dye is one of the basics. Explaining the livening up part helps others. Some day try doing your chocolate color and then a very thin purple glaze. If you haven't done that before it will surprise you. Make a few samples and you'll see what I mean. It's a basic production process to reinforce color depth over yellow.

Have you ever done a French Walnut?

[Chris Fournier]

Colouring walnut as is being described is technique developed out of necessity not because it makes walnut look better but because it keeps customers quiet. Factories need to deliver a consistant looking product over large production runs, across product lines and over time. Natural walnut stock does not lend itself to this so the factories obscure the beauty of natural walnut with all of this colour work - super...

If you are using walnut as a custom furniture builder I'd like to think that you could dispense with all of this nonsense. I do understand however that we often have to build to colour match current objects or that it could be a larger millwork project.

Achieving your final colour by applying layers of other colours shouldn't raise any eyebrows. As Pete points out the colour wheel is very old pyshics!

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,
Hitting it with a yellow dye is one of the basics. Explaining the livening up part helps others. Some day try doing your chocolate color and then a very thin purple glaze. If you haven't done that before it will surprise you. Make a few samples and you'll see what I mean. It's a basic production process to reinforce color depth over yellow.

Have you ever done a French Walnut?

Interesting! I may just have to try that one of these days. I haven't heard of a French Walnut. I assume that is a technique akin to French polish (which I've only read about).