add Soft Start on Cyclone?

[Jonathan Spool]

+1 for a VFD

[David Kumm]

I also run my DC on a vfd. Start up is programmed for about 5 seconds. By watching the amp draw when gates are closed and when fully open you can judge whether the system pipes and filters are balanced with the size of the motor. This allows for tweaking the speed-within the rpm capability of the fan- or adding filter material, sizing pipes, etc. In my case it allows me to use single phase in which saves my RPC capacity. I also have a mag starter with a plug so the DC can be hooked directly to the RPC but I find I don't use it because I like the slow start and adjustability. The vfd is a 10hp- derated by half found on flebay for about $300. Dave

[Alan Schaffter]

mreza is indeed correct about current draw with gates closed vs open.

If I read your post correctly (5 - 7 starts per hour) you don't have a problem. The manufacturers numbers I have seen which I believe are just educated guesstimates are 6-8 starts per hour max.

I would set your Green box for the maximum delay on shut-down and leave it at that. Does the delay on shut down affect both the gates closing and the DC blower? If it does not and the gate closes immediately, that is actually easier on the DC blower motor (see first sentence). I have an electro-pneumatic autogate system- much like the Ecogate gate, activation is triggered by a current sensor switch at each machine outlet. When any gate is opened (automatically via a machine current sensor or manual via buttons when I am using my DC as a vac or during filter cleaning) the DC blower will start. I intentionally designed it so when the gate closes it doesn't turn the DC off- I do that via manual control stations. In hindsight after examining how I work, if I hadn't wanted to retain the ability to turn the DC off immediately, a time delay of 3 - 5 minutes would have worked just fine.

Noise is another issue better served by sound proofing and possibly a muffler.

[Will Blick]

yes, Ecogate can be used without gates....but that would defeat its purpose.... its claim to fame is, PC program the system for all its parameters. On machine start, you can program when gate and DC turns on... on machine stop, you program when gate closes and when DC turns off. It has a feature for VFD as well...not sure I need to utilize that, I was more concerned about the motor burning from start / stops...

you can get ecogate pricing at their web site, its been a few years....not cheap, but its quite a luxury to forget about DC....

I do program mine to turn off DC and gate 1 minute after machine shut down, once I get the laptop back in shop, I will change that to 3 minutes, as others have suggested, its incredible how many times I go to use a machine, and DC just shut down in the past 30 seconds or less...

If 6-8 starts per hour are max., then I am probably safe... I will see if the ClearVue owners have any knowledge about this subject and report back anything I learn. Glad to see some are using VFD.

[Noah Katz]

There is a sensor (made by SSAC) through which the machine leads pass. When it senses current flow, it trips relay to start DC. When it shuts off, a cube timer (not included in original article) allows the unit to run for about ten seconds to clear pipes.

Great, thanks.

[Alan Schaffter]

Can you set different delays for the gates and the DC? If so set your gate delay for about 5 seconds and the DC delay to 3 min.

The main reason to keep the gate open is so the dust clears the ducting and cyclone. If you measure your longest run and divide by the typical DC air velocity of 3500-4000 FPM you will see it takes almost no time for the dust to reach the DC and bin. In my shop it is .5 seconds which is much less time than it takes me to clear wood and my hands from the machine and turn it off. If you have a machine that produces clouds of dust not immediately captured then set the gate delay for longer.

[Chris Mahmood]

A soft start with a universal motor like a circular saw has is easy (pretty much all routers do this, for example) since you're just varying the voltage. Soft starting a single phase induction motor is much trickier because the start capacitor has to be sized to survive however long it will take the motor to get going fast enough for the centrifugal switch to remove it from the circuit. None of this is an issue with three phase motors.

[Ole Anderson]

There is a happy place between leaving your DC running all of the time and starting it for every operation. Just aim for 6 starts per hour or less and you will be ok.

[Myk Rian]

You can lessen the start-up current by completely blocking the inlet with a gate.
Compressors (huge industrial ones) use this on start-up. The reason is you are not moving and compressing air, hence less current.
Once it is running, open the inlet.
Of course this would be inconvenient in a shop, unless you could rig something up to open it for you.

[Jon van der Linden]

The main reason to keep the gate open is so the dust clears the ducting and cyclone. If you measure your longest run and divide by the typical DC air velocity of 3500-4000 FPM you will see it takes almost no time for the dust to reach the DC and bin. In my shop it is .5 seconds

I think that the DC should stay on much longer than that. There's ambient dust that isn't collected immediately. The % of dust that isn't immediately collected and circulates inside and around a machine takes a lot longer to collect than it takes for the material to clear the pipe, even in a commercial shop with 100'+ long pipes.

[Samuel Butler]

Bruce
I have created the system described in FWW but I am intrigued about the "cube timer"
What is it?

[Will Blick]

Chris, thx for that info, interesting.... it explains why two phase (240V) motors rarely have soft starts, but yet single phase (120V) and 3 phase motors quite often do... I never realized the added the complexity.

Yes, the spreadsheet-like program of the EcoGate system allows you to control the gate open/close delay, and the DC start/stop delay, independently of each other. I agree with Jon, it pays to leave the DC running at the gate open for as long as possible after a machine turns off, as it pulls residual dust from the air which the DC missed during machine usage. It also allows you the opportunity to get to the next machine without more start/stops.

Good point regarding low amp draw on start-up with closed gates.... since the DC starts up immediately on machine start up, and the gates take 5 seconds to open, the DC system is prob. getting much less of a slam on start-up than I previously thought. It guess it just sounds harsh, but then again, a 5hp motor is powerful beast. So overall, maybe this Leeson 5hp motor will last many years.... I will throw it an assist by increasing the DC off delay settings, thereby reducing the number of starts required throughout the day. In my case, the motor would never die from run-time, instead, it will die from start/stops, as I don't run a production facility where the motor runs for hours at a time, its usually just a few minutes, so all the motor wear is start/stops. I am sure many other hobbyist fall in this category as well.

[Alan Schaffter]

I think that the DC should stay on much longer than that. There's ambient dust that isn't collected immediately. The % of dust that isn't immediately collected and circulates inside and around a machine takes a lot longer to collect than it takes for the material to clear the pipe, even in a commercial shop with 100'+ long pipes.

Read my last sentence.

[Alan Schaffter]

Bruce
I have created the system described in FWW but I am intrigued about the "cube timer"
What is it?

It is a small electro-mechanical or solid state electronic relay that has an adjustable time delay before the contacts break. The name comes from the metal or plastic can enclosure "cube" . You may also need to purchase a special socket to mount and wire it. You can get them from DigiKey, Factorymation, etc. and any number of electronic suppliers. Just Google "Delay on off relay".

[Will Blick]

ClearVue has no suggestions, and simply stated, leave the motor run....
New owners, so they have bigger issues at hand, understood....
this thread was helpful... I will make the mods to programming, and let it be....