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Thread: Does Oneida have something to fear from Grizzly?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    Question Does Oneida have something to fear from Grizzly?

    Oneida has published what I regard as an over-reaction to an ad on the Grizzly web site.

    The Grizzly add can be found at: http://www.grizzly.com/products/feat...C&site=grizzly

    The Oneida reaction can be found at: http://synergy.oneida-air.com/public...3FLayout%3DDOC

    One thing to note is that the Grizzly system is not yet available so there will not yet be any real independent comparison tests.

    But, when I see company react to a competitor the way that Oneida has to Grizzly, it always makes me think that the competitor may, indeed, have a product that I should consider.

  2. #2
    But, when I see company react to a competitor the way that Oneida has to Grizzly, it always makes me think that the competitor may, indeed, have a product that I should consider.[/QUOTE]




    Why?

    I think Oneida has a valid complaint.

  3. #3
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    If what Oneida says is true, shame on Grizzly. Competition is good, but honest competition is better because it's more meaningful. I work in high-dollar technical sales and I would in no way ever misrepresent a competitor's products or solutions. It degrades me personally, not to mention puts my own solutions in question. I'm not saying what Grizzly did or did not do, only that if they are not representing their products accurately and honestly, I'm very disappointed.

    As to testing, I can attest that Onieda DOES buy and test competitor's machines...I've seen them with my own eyes when I spent a few hours at their facility in Syracuse last February when I was picking up my new cyclone system. (And there are some butt-ugly cyclones out there on the market!! )
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #4
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    When I looked at the Grizzly ad my feeling is that they make a lot of very vague claims without any empirical data. Whenever I see claims like that, my first thought is 'what a load of old-fashioned hockey pucks'. I think it's a very low form of advertising myself. I think Oneida has some very valid objections. Usual disclaimer, no affiliation, I don't even own an Oneida product.

    Steve

  5. #5
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    Personally, I never trust a manufacturer's own claims anyway. Too much is slanted toward marketing. Wait until a 3rd party review comes out from someone a little more reputable (the WOOD mag review was pretty good, iirc) and then see what happens.

    I have noticed that, since 3rd party reviews have gotten more indepth, that Oneida's marketing literature is taking a more 'real life' direction in their numbers.
    Brian Austin
    Phoenix, AZ

    "Rule One: Well, I won't get it done sittin' here drinking coffee.
    Rule Two: The best you can do is the best you can do, so don't panic."
    -- John Gierach

  6. #6
    I have to agree with Onieda... if they did do the tests... show the two machines side by side Also, I want to see independent data before one company trashes another. Shame on them both...

  7. #7

    Wink good find Frank

    I guess what strikes me as rather funny is this line...

    "Grizzly didn't buy our units and they never did a comparison that's why they didn't publish any numbers, if they did they would find our units are much superior in Air volume (CFM) , price per CFM, filtration, noise levels, vibration, motor quality, overall engineering, much superior quality of fit and finish. "

    As the Grizzly units are not even available yet, how can Oneida claim

    "they would find our units are much superior in Air volume (CFM) , price per CFM, filtration, noise levels, vibration, motor quality, overall engineering, much superior quality of fit and finish."

    Looks to me like both sides are playing the same game

    Chris DeHut

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris DeHut
    Looks to me like both sides are playing the same game
    They are.

    The Grizzly cyclone hasn't even hit the States yet. I'm looking forward to reading some real reviews of it.

    As far as buying competitor's products, we do it all of the time in my industry. We tear down each unit and find it's weaknesses and strengths. It makes our products better.

    In case you're wondering ... forklifts. You see ours every day at HD.

  9. #9
    Agree with Jim.

    Also, I don't know the merits of the claims and how the tests were performed, but in my dealings with Oneida (I have the 2hp unit) I have always gotten accurate, helpful info and is a pleasure dealing with them. Companies like this seem to be increasingly harder to find - for more reasons than one .

    Bob
    bob m

  10. #10
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    I guess Oneida had to say SOMETHING with all the talk going on in the forums about the new Grizzly units.
    Honestly, I'd be concerned if I was Oneida. If the Grizzly units are even close to what they claim it's going to eat into their bottom line.

    Hey Wood magazine, please test these things and show us where they fit relative to the others.

    Jay
    Jay St. Peter

  11. #11
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    I rarely consider the third party reviews these days. Often there are advertising dollars involved that could sway some of the results reported....IMHO of coarse.

  12. #12
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    the thing I find funny about the Onedia rant is, they are slamming a pre-marketing adver from grizzly. I would think (knowing grizzly) that there will be more detailed info forthcoming. If you look at what grizzly does and spectrum of what they sell, it's like walmart moving in on your turf. Early response will maybe catch early converts but in the long run, the competition will cause better products, more features for lower costs. The statement where Onedia talks about the chinese built motor _vs_ the american motor is kinda funny IMHO.



    Keith

  13. #13
    I personally don't like either company making claims like "mine is better than yours" with one of the players not even in the retail marketplace yet. How can Oneida "know" anything about the Griz since there are none to even look at yet???? They say the Griz is spot welded. How can they possibly know this?????? Just because they didn't sell a unit directly and ship it directly to Griz does not mean that Griz doesn't have units from Oneida. Seems logical to me if anyone were going into any commercial venture that they would want to know what the main competition had to offer and would most likely not just call them up and order a few to find out. Saying that Griz does not have their units to test is nuts and just because Griz does not have curves on their site right now doesn't mean that they don't have them or are not going to post them.

    As far as the design/engineering issue is concerning, contrary to what some would have us believe cyclones are not rocket science. The basic design has been around for decades. Sure there are dimensions and features that make one particular cyclone perform better than another but those are certainly no design secret. Saying that someone "stole" their engineering is way off base in my opinion. If you look at the pics of the 2 units in question here you will notice alot of things that are similar as there are in ANY cyclone comparison and some differences as there are in any different manufacturer's/vendor's cyclone. The stolen engineering deal is way wrong in my book.

    Honestly, I wish neither company would market this way. I am anxious to see and touch the Griz cyclones. The Griz units will not be available for a month or so and there is simply no way that ANYONE can know what level of fit and finsih, performance, filtering or any other aspect of the units or how they will comapre to the Oneida's or any others until there are in the hands of someone that can properly test and compare.

    Time will tell the story here. Oneida has a great reputation and certainly has the lead as far a experience and engineering goes but the price point of the Grizzly's will certainly cause many to opt for them if the performance is there. If the performance is not equal to or more than Oneida this whole deal is a non-issue.

    Terry

    edit: BTW...Grizzly rep on "that other wwing forum" posted pics of Oneida shipments siting in Grizzly's warehouse. I have every confidence there will be comparions including blower curves when there are Grizzly units to test. All of the hub-bub is just that unitl then.
    Last edited by Terry Hatfield; 02-04-2005 at 12:46 PM.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  14. #14
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    I would add to what you gentlemen are saying that I've read on another forum where a poster who named himself "Papagrizzly" and who admittedly works for or owns Grizzly, stated before they put out their most recent review on their website, that "Grizzly did not start this fight" and that "If Oneida thinks they were going to eliminate the competition, they haven't seen competition yet."

    I was left, having read what was on the Grizzly website about the Oneida incident before the most recent postings, that Oneida perhaps had been the one had attacked first, thereby stirring up and angering the Grizzly (grin) to the point the Grizzly is now attacking.

    Having said all that, I don't think I'll buy a machine from either vendor. Were I to decide to put together a cyclone system, I would go with a Bill Pentz kit and build it myself. I feel strongly, having read his website, he has done more for advancing the case of woodworking safety processes in the dust collection area than any other human being on the planet. That being said, I would like to reward that effort by sending my hard-earned dollars his way. If he sold a machine, I'd buy the machine from him, regardless of costs (and you know, if you've ready my jointer/planer posts or table saw posts I'm normally tight fisted money wise), simply because he deserves to make the money, he earned it with the information he's researched and put on his website.

    Just my .02,

    Dave
    Dave in Flowery Branch, GA

  15. #15
    <st1:city w:st="on"><st1 =""></st1></st1:city>Oneida is running scared! They are a very small company, with their entire means of staying afloat in jeopardy.
    They have no idea if Grizzly bought any or each of their cyclones, they may be jumping in to a bottomless pit. If I were the spokesman for Oneida<st1:city w:st="on"><st1 =""></st1></st1:city>, I would have waited until the Grizzly cyclones were released before I jumped off the cliff.

    In my opinion, <st1:city w:st="on"><st1 =""></st1></st1:city> Oneida feels a lot of heat on this, and they are more then a little scared. <st1:city w:st="on"><st1 =""></st1></st1:city> Oneida should focus on making the best cyclone for the lowest possible price, and forget about what Grizzly may or may not be coming out with.

    I think the new Grizzly just may be a keeper from what I have seen and read as of now.
    Last edited by mike lucas; 02-04-2005 at 1:23 PM.

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