Charlesworth vs Coseman Videos

[Terry Beadle]

Both David Charlesworth and Jim Kingshott have very good dvd/VHS videos. If forced to choose between the two, Mr. Charlesworth gets my vote hands down. Why?..you may ask? He's a better teacher. Lucky for us they are both good teachers. However, Mr. Charlesworth goes into the explaination of his thinking behind his techniques in a very clear and practical way. This is to be expected as Mr. Charlesworth has many years teaching experience. Like all good teachers, they learn from their students as much as they teach them. I will say Mr. Charlesworth some times gets over the top in some commentary but it needs to be there to stick in my tired old brain I think.

I really learned planes and sharpening techniques from Mr. Kingshott so I'll always be grateful for his giving and charming lessons. I still watch his videos on my VHS ( yes...it still works ) and learn again things that I've not noticed before. Good videos are like that. DC's videos are the same way. For myself, David Charlesworth's videos on plane blade sharpening and the one on using chisels are the best of all the 50 or so video's I've bought over the years. They have really helped improve my work and results. For the cost of a video, that's a big bargain and appeals to my Scottish tendencies.

We are blessed with lots of choices in videos today. Tage Frid, Tom Law, and others come to mind when I think of what one can learn in your own living room cheaply. Mr. Christopher Schwarz also comes to mind with his wit and perspectives. They are all helping wood working and enriching our lives tremendously and I thank them.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I would like to give you folks what our local group, The Guild of NH Woodworkers, takes as an article of faith. EVERY WOODWORKER WHETHER BEGINNER OR EXPERT HAS BOTH SOMETHING TO TEACH, AND SOMETHING TO LEARN FROM OTHERS.

Perceptions of good, indifferent, detailed, or arrogant are all exactly that....perceptions. We all look at things from our own unique perspective which is colored by personal experience and by how we personally relate to people. Another point to consider in "rating" a video is our own personal learning style. People learn in 3 very different ways, watching a demo, reading about the subject, or by actually performing the task. In each of us one of these 3 methods is dominant. How you like or dislike a particular personality and or a particular video will depend on your learning style. Don't forget that though one of these 3 styles of learning is dominant, we all learn from all 3 methods in varying degrees.

The bottom line is that each video by each producer will appeal to different folks and for very different reasons.

Let's try to keep this discussion on a positive tone.

[Jim Koepke]

EVERY WOODWORKER WHETHER BEGINNER OR EXPERT HAS BOTH SOMETHING TO TEACH, AND SOMETHING TO LEARN FROM OTHERS.

This is very true. It is also the reason I am happy to help other wood workers learn a technique or processes they find difficult. Each one of them has opened my eyes to seeing things a different way. Some have shed light on my own weaknesses.

"When one teaches, two learn." Robert Heinlein

I have been reading this thread, but have not commented until now. My own curiosity will cause me to read every article or view any video I can find on a subject of my interests. Almost everyone has been able to impart some knowledge. No matter how small that piece of the puzzle may be, it is still helpful in completing the picture.

Even those who may ruffle my feathers can teach me something.

jtk

[Ed Looney]

I appreciate those who recommended some of the sources mentioned. I plan on purchasing some of these simply because I believe I can learn something form all of these craftsmen. I was taught how to sharpen tools and cut dovetails by Rob Cosman. The best lesson I learned was if you want to do good work use good tools. That goes for sharpening tools or cutting dovetails. A good saw will allow you to make the joint from saw cut to saw cut and you can skip most of the paring. These principles equally apply to chisels. A good chisel will stay sharper longer and fit comfortably in your hand. It will also take the abuse of chopping out the waste and a good set of stones will allow you to produce that razor sharp cutting edge quickly.

Just this week I was able to complete a tools project I have been working on for way to long. It took a while to purchase and fettle in these tools but my dovetail kit is finally completed. All of the chisels are polished on Shapton stones to mirror finish on the backs. A work sharp station with a honing guide was used to set the primary angles. The final bevels were polished to a 30000 finish. They are all sharp enough to shave with. Please do not count Rob Cosman out when it comes to sharpening, he does a good job of coaching this as well.

Ed Looney

[Pam Niedermayer]

...I was taught how to sharpen tools and cut dovetails by Rob Cosman. The best lesson I learned was if you want to do good work use good tools....

This alludes to my one major complaint about Rob's teaching methods. Granted, good tools are good, no question; but when he touts whatever tools he's selling as being the "best" tools, I have problems. When all his students exit from class and start posting on the boards about the "best" tools they've been using this past week, I have problems. So all I see is a bunch of relatively ignorant (not including you, Ed) proselytizers who have to be taught that there is no "best" tool, ever.

Pam

[Jay Maiers]

I just watched the Kingshott dovetail video. As an absolute beginner, I think I'd prefer a little more commentary and background info. One thing I was hoping for was a little more saw instruction; where to place the saw, initial angle of attack, posture / body position, tips for keeping the saw on track, etc. Then again, I guess that's information that I should be getting through saw instruction and not from a dovetail video

I'm glad I bought it and I'll no doubt watch it again. Unfortunately, it's a step ahead of my skills right now. I think I need to focus on a few different fundamentals before I'm ready to apply his methods.

[Jim Neeley]

I've read a number of posts in this thread and finally am going to respond.

I am the "greenhorn" of which some of you speak. While I have long worked with power tools and have a very well equipped shop, I'm new to the Neander world.

I have no connection with Rob Cosman beyond having purchased and viewed a number of his DVDs but I believe there's a few things that, based on the posts, people must be uninformed about.

I ordered 3 of Rob's videos and, while waiting for their arrival, emailed him a question on Chisel selections, products he does not sell. Rob responded with a long (most of a typed page) explanation on different types of chisels, steel types, and some of the trade-offs between different manufacturers products. His response was clearly personal, as he went into depth comparing and contrasting the two brands of chisels I was considering.

Despite some posts to the contrary, Rob is very down-to-earth in his videos, talking about how "anyone, with practice and good tools, can do what I do". He demonstrates and explains the processes in such a way that the "greenhorn" feels inspired to give it a try.

In my opinion and based my email, viewing the 8 of his videos I've purchased to date, and talking with several people who have taken his classes, Rob is anything but "heartless" or "egotistical".

Johnny, I too wish Rob would give more information on the scratch pattern but, for us "greenhorns" a rough time duration reference is very helpful. I know that in my first venture into "scary sharp" about 10 years ago, only having read about scratch patterns and having no one to tell me I'd gotten there, I spent about 30 minutes on each of the 6 grits I used. It would have been more helpful to have been told "after the first grit, you should spend 2 to 3 (or whatever number of) minutes on each grit" and get a general idea of what to do on the scratch pattern than to just provide the latter.

Anyway, just $0.02 from a "greenhorn"...

[Johnny Kleso]

Jim,
I fell giving times is very wrong.. You have to sharpen till its sharp.. I hhave read many posts of people saying they did this for X amount of time and its still not sharp.. You have to know exactly what you need to do and time has nothing to do with it..

IE: Sharpening a brand new LN chisel vs and very old chisel that has opened paint cans for the last 20 years or even a brand new china made beater as two very differnt times..

In sharpening yoou need an eye loup to see what your doing..
Know what your looking for..
To know how to feel for the burr that forms when the two edges meet..

[Jim Neeley]

Johnny,

I agree wholeheartedly that you have to sharpen until it is sharp... and time alone doesn't dictate that. As I've learned from you wise folks here, for example, sharpening A-2 is very different than O-1.

I also experienced this when I got some new L-N's... both when I moved from sharpening with my old Marples and Olympias as well as the difference between sharpening the A-2 and O-1 L-N's. :<g>

Still, after being told about the scratch patterns it would have been nice to have heard a "generally about XXX to YYY minutes for this grit", as XXX would most likely have been way less than 30, assuming the bevel is set and the edge not dinged!

[Ed Looney]

This alludes to my one major complaint about Rob's teaching methods. Granted, good tools are good, no question; but when he touts whatever tools he's selling as being the "best" tools, I have problems. When all his students exit from class and start posting on the boards about the "best" tools they've been using this past week, I have problems. So all I see is a bunch of relatively ignorant (not including you, Ed) proselytizers who have to be taught that there is no "best" tool, ever.

Pam

Pam
Take note of the brand of chisels in the pictures. There are two different brands in the pictures and Rob sells none of them. So I am inclined to ask what is the basis of your complaint about Rob's methods. Rob simply told us to buy the best you can afford because it is cheaper to buy good once than finding out cheep isn't good enough and the having to buy again.

Ed

[Bob Jones]

The cosman videos were my first chance to learn about hand tools by watching someone use them rather than just reading about using them. I really enjoyed each one and learned alot about woodworking from them. They inspired me to learn to cut joinery by hand because he made it look possible. I highly recommend each of his videos. Sure, he has opinions, but what passionate person does not? I like learning from decisive people because they get right to the point.

[Jeff Hamilton Jr.]

I agree with Dave Anderson.

For those of us who have day jobs, and only have limited time to enjoy this great pastime of woodworking, I think it is a boon to have wonderful teachers like the three that have been mentioned here. I've read books, watched DVD's and purused their online offerings -- the all of them. I enjoy each one and hope to one day get to take a lesson from ANY of them! I've had the pleasure of taking a class from Andy Rae, Roland Johnson, Scott Phillips and some others and, while different, each class was great fun!

This crap about one person being "arrogant" is way off the mark.

Keep up the good work all of you.

[john brenton]

Jim N,

I'm the one who said "greenhorn", and I hope it didn't come across as me sounding like I think I'm some kind of seasoned professional...I'm anything but. I'm sure any one of us could learn oodles of tips and tricks from Cosman, and I doubt any of us realize how much he and others have contributed to what we know. I always disparaged the FWW world and the whole "secrets and mysteries" crowd, but that's just because I'm critical and cynical. Its a character flaw. I'm quite sure that a great many of us would be up a creek (no pun intended) if it were not for their contributions.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam
Take note of the brand of chisels in the pictures. There are two different brands in the pictures and Rob sells none of them. So I am inclined to ask what is the basis of your complaint about Rob's methods. Rob simply told us to buy the best you can afford because it is cheaper to buy good once than finding out cheep isn't good enough and the having to buy again.

Well, that's now, Ed; but in 2004-09 or so he was selling LN chisels and planes and stuff. I stand by what I said. Now maybe I'd need to forget all this stuff, except that even when I compliment Rob on his drawer video, he doesn't notice. And then there's that bit about reliving history.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Sorry, Rob, but it hasn't been 10 years. This all started in late spring 2004, when on WC we had the honor of hosting one of your precious newbies, who not only proclaimed the "best" status of LN chisels (wonder where that came from?); but then proceded to attack anyone who didn't agree. And then a few of his minions joined in on the chorus. This went on for some weeks, and so far I've only mentioned it maybe 3 or 4 times; so I figure there's more entertainment due. Oh, yeah, and then he started in proclaiming Lance Armstrong and bicycling and other stuff that didn't belong on WC.

Pam