Charlesworth vs Coseman Videos

[Jim Neeley]

OK.. I've watched Rob's videos and like how he teaches.. so I guess that makes me a "precious newby" ...oh yea, and "relatively ignorant" as well...

Pam... Thank you for the patronizing disdain. I wasn't on WC (whatever that was) but you've made your feelings towards "precious newbies and their minions" eminently clear.

[Ed Looney]

Pam
With all due respect I don't care about 2004-09 this is 2011 and I personally don't wish to have one of my posts used to grind your axe.
I also think it unfair to judge the teacher by the behavior of a student. If things were turned around and the shoe was on the other foot I don' t think you would appreciate being held responsible for another persons actions.
Now can we get on with improving our woodworking skills? Life is to short and I would like to to focus on developing craftsmanship.

Ed Looney

[Johnny Kleso]

If I had to buy chisels all over again, I would say buy the LN's ..

Who makes a better chisel for a newbie?

[Josh Rudolph]

Who makes a better chisel for a newbie?

Johnny,

I recently purchased the LN's and love them. When looking, I considered the Blue Spruce offerings which are gorgeous, but out of my price range. Heck the LN's were too, but I finally talked myself into them. The Ashley Iles offered at tools for working wood are also purported to be nice.

I was able to put my hands on each at WIA. I wanted socket as opposed to tang so that ruled out the AI's.

If I had it to do over again....I would likely buy the LN's again.

Josh

[Jay Maiers]

If I had to buy chisels all over again, I would say buy the LN's ..

Who makes a better chisel for a newbie?

Lol. I'm still happy with my 15 year old set of Marples Blue Chips. While they don't hold an edge for as long as I would like, they sharpen up quite well.

...At least, they're sharp by my definition. I'm sure I'll change my mind on that after a while, but they'll do for now.

[David Weaver]

LN makes nice tools. Now that it's 2011, I would buy the O1 chisels, they'll be made like the old marples and the pre-modern stanleys, but a little harder than the stanleys.

BUT, they'll stand up at 25 degrees to general work if they're made right, and the A2s will to some extent, too, but likely not as well. It makes no sense to get a chisel that's harder to grind and has big carbides in it to have the edge be less durable.

I still have some A2 mortise chisels from LN, they are awfully tough for A2. Since getting RI chisels, I haven't gotten the A2 chisels out of the roll except to chop a couple of mortises with each when the RIs were new so I could compare the edge damage.

It is my opinion that if you are tight for money, it is worth your time to put together a loose diamond setup to grind out pitting, etc. LN chisels make sense for someone who has the money for them. To have to "save for a few months to get them", that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If you're in the latter category, your tool dollar goes a lot farther with older tools or with learning to prepare or modify tools.

Same goes for saws and planes.

[John Tallyn]

Which color do you prefer, red, blue, green, or white, each of us have our own opinions, each of us are correct for what is best for us. I own all of David Charlesworth's videos, and two of Rob Cosman's, personally I prefer Charlesworth,s, but that is nothing more than a personal preference, I also have videos from Chris Scwartz and Frank Klaus, also excellent videos. Both are excellent in what they do, and to sit here an nitpick over whether one is arrogant, or one is better, does a disservice to both men. To call Rob Cosman "arrogant", just from watching a video strikes me as rather arrogant on it's face. If you don't know the man, don't judge him, and don't pass along gossip, most of us are long out of high school and should be well past derogatory statements about other woodworkers. Both men are professionals, and provide these videos as a service, but also to make a living, I certainly wouldn't turn down a chance to take a class from either, and I have no doubt would learn a great deal from each. Now, I have to order some other videos from Jim Klingshott, as I haven't seen any of his. Go ahead and slam me if you will for my statements, but they are nothing more then my personal beliefs.
Good Luck to all
John

[Johnny Kleso]

Hi John,
Since I started this thread I felt badly seeing what it turned into..
My feeling are pretty much yours with the name calling..
Always remember english is not everyones first language and very often the way you read a statemet may not be what was ment so write..
I hope that was the case with Rob being called arrogant..
I do hope people try to refrain any comments like that..

Which are the best videos and what do you like about them?

[george wilson]

I have never seen any of Rob's videos. However, I find it hard to believe that someone who gets into woodworking "for the money" has no real soul or interest. Woodworking is not a big money field to get into in the first place.

[Scott Stafford]

First of all, this is just my humble opinion.

I am very familiar with Rob Cosman's videos as well as David Charlesworth's DVD's. Rob Cosman's lesson will have you cutting dovetails in no time. (pretty will come with practice) David Charlesworth will show you how to cut the very finest of dovetails, but to start with David's methods may frustrate you. After you have the basics down, you can incorporate the Charlesworth fine nuances into your dovetails.

I would start with Rob Cosman's new Dovetails 2.0 DVD and also spend the extra to get the companion shop manual. It's great to have the manual with you at the workbench to refresh you on each step. Rob's teaching expertise extends to this manual. I think this will be your fastest route to actually cutting your own dovetails.

Best of luck,

Scott in Montana

[Jon van der Linden]

This alludes to my one major complaint about Rob's teaching methods. Granted, good tools are good, no question; but when he touts whatever tools he's selling as being the "best" tools, I have problems. When all his students exit from class and start posting on the boards about the "best" tools they've been using this past week, I have problems. So all I see is a bunch of relatively ignorant (not including you, Ed) proselytizers who have to be taught that there is no "best" tool, ever.

Pam

There are always best tools. It's the best one you have or can make for the job. Let's face it, the best tools only help, while someone with real skill will produce superior results because they know how to accomplish the desired results with the tools rather than relying on them.

[Jon van der Linden]

Both Charlesworth and Cosman are great teachers and people can learn different things from each of them. Cosman learned a lot from Alan Peters, and I think most will agree that a small tip from someone like Alan can make a world of difference in their work. Charlesworth is very analytical in his approach and there are of course things one can pick up there as well. Too much has been made of his "ruler trick," which was originally intended as a way to turn a poor blade into something functional. Their methods and approaches are different, I wouldn't say either's dvds are "better" than the other. Like all things in woodworking, learn from both and use what's most suited to your own approach and skills.

[David Weaver]

Cosman learned a lot from Alan Peters

You mean like as an apprentice? I thought he learned woodworking in Utah.

Assuming that most of the people on here who have issues have them because of a video would be inaccurate. He seems like an alright guy to me, but I do recall prior posts here and elsewhere, and it isn't the videos that people are referring to.

As far as the ruler trick goes, I'm pretty sure cosman holds that in high regard, too. In fact, I'm not sure there is a better or faster way to remove the wear bevel from the back of the iron when the steel is hardened to a very high hardness like a lot of the more modern irons are. I would assume most non-professionals couldn't get an edge as sharp lapping the bevel, especially not as quickly, even on a flat new iron.

That's the one thing that Larry Williams always mentions, too, though not from the point of view of the ruler trick (IIRC). But from the standpoint that most of the time when he sees someone having trouble sharpening, it's because they are not getting the wear bevel taken care of on the back of an iron.

[Jon van der Linden]

You mean like as an apprentice? I thought he learned woodworking in Utah.

Assuming that most of the people on here who have issues have them because of a video would be inaccurate. He seems like an alright guy to me, but I do recall prior posts here and elsewhere, and it isn't the videos that people are referring to.

As far as the ruler trick goes, I'm pretty sure cosman holds that in high regard, too. In fact, I'm not sure there is a better or faster way to remove the wear bevel from the back of the iron when the steel is hardened to a very high hardness like a lot of the more modern irons are. I would assume most non-professionals couldn't get an edge as sharp lapping the bevel, especially not as quickly, even on a flat new iron.

That's the one thing that Larry Williams always mentions, too, though not from the point of view of the ruler trick (IIRC). But from the standpoint that most of the time when he sees someone having trouble sharpening, it's because they are not getting the wear bevel taken care of on the back of an iron.

David, he didn't "learn woodworking" from Alan Peters, but he did spend some time in his shop. Enough that there are some things in his videos that come from that experience and are worth knowing.

Obviously the ruler trick only works on planes... are you saying that it's not possible to sharpen a chisel because it's harder to lap? There are lots of reasons for and against the ruler trick, I just happen to be one of those that's tried it and find that the downsides outweigh the benefits for me. A person that can't get their tools sharp without it (assuming a good blade) needs to learn more about sharpening.

[David Weaver]

Chisels are narrower, and chisel backs have to be flat for some techniques. A little bit of belly can be tolerable as long as the edge isn't ruler tricked.

Sharpening an A2 plane iron 2 3/8th inches wide is an entirely different venture than sharpening a 3/4" chisel that has likely failed due to chipping of the edge and not due to wear along the back of the bevel as should be the case with a good quality plane iron.

The harder and wider the iron, the greater the benefit to the ruler trick. I do not do it on all of mine (especially on narrow or softer irons, and not on highly cambered irons where finish work isn't done to begin with). I do it on some, though. If not using the ruler trick, a good sharpener will learn to put finger pressure on an iron where the work needs to be done and be able to get as good of an edge without the ruler trick, but I would bet that 95% of beginners, probably more, will get a better edge on a plane, where the failure will be due to wear and the wear bevel will be longer and more pronounced than the back of a chisel that has ultimately failed due to chipping. This finger pressure over time will lead to some belly on a chisel, too, if the back isn't kept lapped properly.

The other issue is that while a chisel needs to be sharp, especially a paring chisel, it is likely not doing a finish show surface like a smoother iron might be. So for the

I would stick my neck out and say without question, a majority of more experienced users would also get a better edge (in terms of uniformity of complete sharpness every single time) with microbevels and a back bevel (the ruler trick). This is essentially what rob is doing, even though he doesn't advocate a guide. A good hollow grind will produce the same effect as a microbevel, but I think it's easier to relieve the edges accurately the way charlesworth does it - you just do it, you don't have to check - than it is on the third or fourth hone on a hollow grind.

Sharp is sharp no matter how you get there. There are only a few things to consider:
1) the size of the scratches
2) the uniformity (and direction) of the scratches at the edge on both sides of the bevel
3) the lack of any voids or chips
4) the bevel angle on the sharpened iron

Charlesworth's and Rob's methods are very good ways to make sure you control those things.