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Thread: Charlesworth vs Coseman Videos

  1. #46
    The most important lesson I took from Mr. Kingshott's DT video is sharpness, next is learning to saw. Neither are things he went into in that video, but he prompted me to find out the information. His planing video shows enough about sharpening a plane iron to get anyone started...from there, it's up to you to get to the next level. When I use a hand plane, I think about that video and try to remember the lesson.
    Mr. Charlesworth's chisel video gave me lots of information that I'm sure will always be useful. I chopped my first mortices the other evening using the technique he demonstrated (even with the same chisel!) and I couldn't be happier. I have plenty more to learn from him and his methods.
    Believe it or not, number three on my list of people I like to watch is Tommy Mac. I've seen just about all of his early podcasts and they definitely inspired me to try different things out. I rarely get a chance to watch his show, however.
    Each of those gentlemen click with me. That's why I watch them. They have a certain humble factor that appeals to me.
    I believe I was the one who brought up the "arrogant" word. That's my opinion. Rob is definitely skilled, and a lot of people have learned a great deal from him. Our personalities just don't mesh, so I don't watch his stuff, and I was simply stating that. -hoping I didn't just start the argument again with this comment
    If it ain't broke, fix it til it is!

  2. #47
    I think you're leaving out some very significant things. Bevel up planes are very close to their relief angle, and a cutter needs a certain clearance on the backside to perform effectively. Creating any bevel on the relief side of a bevel up blade creates an unsuitable geometry and greater wear problem on that side. If for any reason you want to get rid of a micro bevel you have to remove a lot more material to get to a sharp edge than you otherwise would.

    A micro bevel on the flat side of the blade means that you can't strop the blade. Most of my sharpening is done on my finest stones or a strop. Because the blades are maintained at their sharpest while in use, there's no more work involved, and it's very quick. I can understand that some are daunted by the preparation of a wide A2 blade, since it does take a loooong time! Once done, if it's maintained properly after its initial conditioning, it really doesn't take more time to keep it there than any other method, at least for me.

    There's a lot of variance in how people do things as individuals and sometimes it's almost impossible for one person to duplicate what someone else is doing. Charlesworth's use of guides in his methods takes much of that out of the picture. As I said previously, he's very analytical, which is something I happen to like.

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Baldwin III View Post
    Each of those gentlemen click with me. That's why I watch them. They have a certain humble factor that appeals to me.
    One of the funniest things I've ever heard in a woodworking video was Kingshott (put on English accent here) saying "If you can't saw to a line, you aught to be practicin' sawin', NOT making dovetails!"

  4. #49
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    I have been doing the ruler trick without the ruler for at least 55 years.

  5. #50
    I think a ruler trick makes a lot of sense on a BU plane, because the difference between 12 degrees and 10 degrees of relief isn't a lot, effectively in use, I don't know that I'd notice it. Larry Williams has made a lot of good points on this forum and others about relief, and I don't recall what he called adequate relief, but it was more like 20.

    It depends on what ruler you use (I don't use BU planes much, i used to a lot, but i don't much now). Someone I know who is a fanatic of charlesworth's videos watched the video and then gave me a couple of 1/2 mm starrett feelers. I don't think i've ever backbevel any BU plane iron, but I wouldn't be afraid to. Maybe I have. You have to be sparing when you use the ruler trick to keep from having the problem you've mentioned - chasing it back too far and just making a large backbevel with a thick chord.

    I'm not sure why you feel that you can't strop an iron with a microbevel.

    As far as prep of an iron, that's different than maintenance honing. I don't feel like it's very difficult to flatten any iron, unless they are horribly out of flat or made of high speed steel and significantly out of flat. A2 included. It is a different process, though, if you have an iron holder and very quick. However, starting with using a medium stone and finger pressure, I do recall that and I can remember spending 30 minutes or more preparing a hock a2 iron from new, as well as the old LNs. Build a cheap (free) holder and those days are long gone.

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon van der Linden View Post
    One of the funniest things I've ever heard in a woodworking video was Kingshott (put on English accent here) saying "If you can't saw to a line, you aught to be practicin' sawin', NOT making dovetails!"
    The first thing I did after that was draw a bunch of lines on a board and try to saw to them. He has a gem or two in each video. My sawing is getting better though! I thought of that very line when watching the Charlesworth video when he said, "my hand sawing is not particularly good." But he has a band saw, and I don't...so I have to practice those straight hand cuts!
    If it ain't broke, fix it til it is!

  7. #52
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    I own several of Robs dvd's and have learned from every one of them. I also own several of Charlseworths and have learned from them as well. They both make money doing this as they should. I have to be honest. Whoever Pam is this is not the first bitch and moan I have read from her and to be very honest I am sick of it. Give it a rest already. I like this place as I learn from it and most of the posters. Lets keep it that way..... Just my 2 cents.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Niedermayer View Post
    Sorry, Rob, but it hasn't been 10 years. This all started in late spring 2004, when on WC we had the honor of hosting one of your precious newbies, who not only proclaimed the "best" status of LN chisels (wonder where that came from?); but then proceded to attack anyone who didn't agree. And then a few of his minions joined in on the chorus. This went on for some weeks, and so far I've only mentioned it maybe 3 or 4 times; so I figure there's more entertainment due. Oh, yeah, and then he started in proclaiming Lance Armstrong and bicycling and other stuff that didn't belong on WC.

    Pam

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by john davey View Post
    I own several of Robs dvd's and have learned from every one of them. I also own several of Charlseworths and have learned from them as well. They both make money doing this as they should. I have to be honest. Whoever Pam is this is not the first bitch and moan I have read from her and to be very honest I am sick of it. Give it a rest already. I like this place as I learn from it and most of the posters. Lets keep it that way..... Just my 2 cents.
    Well, why don't you tell us how much you've learned from Rob C's posts here.

    Pam

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neeley View Post
    OK.. I've watched Rob's videos and like how he teaches.. so I guess that makes me a "precious newby" ...oh yea, and "relatively ignorant" as well...

    Pam... Thank you for the patronizing disdain. I wasn't on WC (whatever that was) but you've made your feelings towards "precious newbies and their minions" eminently clear.
    I don't think it does. I was categorizing Rob C's student who, although new, felt qualified to tell all experienced woodworkers that LN chisels were the best, absolutely.

    Now I often see people attracted by wealth and/or apparent fame (there's really not that much fame in woodworking, but...), they glom onto every word as gospel as long as that word is stated by a rich and/or famous person. There's no talking with them.

    Pam

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Looney View Post
    Pam
    With all due respect I don't care about 2004-09 this is 2011 and I personally don't wish to have one of my posts used to grind your axe.
    I also think it unfair to judge the teacher by the behavior of a student. If things were turned around and the shoe was on the other foot I don' t think you would appreciate being held responsible for another persons actions.
    Now can we get on with improving our woodworking skills? Life is to short and I would like to to focus on developing craftsmanship.

    Ed Looney
    2009 isn't all that long ago. Life is too short, and I'd like to spend mine on woodworking, not watching dvd's without value for wherever I am on the skill continuum. Kingshott gave me the most knowledge for the time and money.

    If I were to teach woodworking, I'd consider it my responsibility for the attitudes taken by students from my class, since I'd get to help shape said attitudes.

    Pam

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon van der Linden View Post
    There are always best tools. It's the best one you have or can make for the job. Let's face it, the best tools only help, while someone with real skill will produce superior results because they know how to accomplish the desired results with the tools rather than relying on them.
    I agree that the best tools are tools, and are wielded according to the worker's skill; and, therefore, to say there's one set of "best" chisels is patently incorrect.

    Pam

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Niedermayer View Post
    I agree that the best tools are tools, and are wielded according to the worker's skill; and, therefore, to say there's one set of "best" chisels is patently incorrect.

    Pam
    I will second that train of thought. I have many different chisels of the same size and some of them are "best" for a specific task, more so than others that are "best" for a different specific task.

    It may even be impossible to say there is one set that is the best value.

    The chisel that gets used and will do the job the user requires it to do may be the best.

    I think there are many different kinds of people and no matter how gracious a person may be to many, it is only human nature that they are likely to rub others the wrong way.

    What some see as confidence, others may see as arrogance. In this case, that would be the same side of two different coins, just to turn a phrase around.

    And that is what makes the world go 'round.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  13. #58
    Pam,


    Seems you have an axe you have to grind about Rob..

    Why not contact him directly and take it up with him and don’t drag my comments into your grievance with him..

    I feel like my negative comment about Rob has made me part of your grievance with Rob.. I now feel like I have been dragged into being hyper critical about him and I feel like my comments have been used for fueling your grievance..

    That is the farthest thing from my mind when I made the comment. I now feel Mr. Cosman sees me as a heckler and not just someone commenting on his teaching style..

    Last edited by Johnny Kleso; 05-26-2011 at 6:14 PM.
    aka rarebear - Hand Planes 101 - RexMill - The Resource

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Kleso View Post
    Pam, is possible you can talk tools and not grip and complain and needle all the time??????????????????????
    Seems your an expert at that and giving an opinion but I dont ever remember you doing anything other than that...
    Have you ever made anything?????????????

    Have you seen any of these videos and if yes which ones????
    How about commenting on the videos your self.......
    Not students from somme old post or tools of students..
    You have an axe you have to grind... People are trying to give you a hint but looks like they need to drop a bomb on you before you get drift...
    I know I am tired of you hi-jacking this thread, you seem to have only sour grapes, so go mash them elsewhere..........
    Oh, Johnny, sure I'd be happy to not complain, when you boys start behaving. See, it's all these boys who make a mess and leave it for others to clean up that are the problems.

    Yes, I've made plenty of stuff, started when I was 11 and needed a bookshelf. That was 53 years ago. Do I show it? No, not any more, I hate asking for praise.

    And I don't know what people you're talking about, giving me all these hints. My email says otherwise.

    And I've seen piles of woodworking videos, including, as I said, a two dvd set from Rob. Maybe if you'd read with more care you'd know that I recommended Kingshott, without qualification of any sort.

    Pam

  15. #60
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    Pam,

    Pam says...
    "I've watched one Cosman dvd, a two-dvd set on making a precision fit drawer (LN doesn't seem to carry his dvd's any more); and it was OK, but too long, thus expensive, and his dovetailing method too fiddly for me, may be great for beginners. I think I'd give him credit for workable methods and a certain completeness."

    then Pam says...
    "Now maybe I'd need to forget all this stuff, except that even when I compliment Rob on his drawer video, he doesn't notice."

    To paraphrase and excerpt from the movie "Princess Bride": "I don't think compliment means what you think it means!"

    "Backhanded complements" are *not* compliments... They are snide remarks... as are:
    Oh, Johnny, sure I'd be happy to not complain, when you boys start behaving. See, it's all these boys who make a mess and leave it for others to clean up that are the problems.


    So all I see is a bunch of relatively ignorant (not including you, Ed) proselytizers who have to be taught that there is no "best" tool, ever.

    Well, why don't you tell us how much you've learned from Rob C's posts here.

    If I were to teach woodworking, I'd consider it my responsibility for the attitudes taken by students from my class, since I'd get to help shape said attitudes.
    Pam, I appreciate it when you provide your technical perspective to the pool of woodworking expertise here but...

    Catty "Holier than Thou" behavior is catty "Holier than Thou" behavior, no matter who is doing it. I like the person, I just don't care for the behavior.

    If you read this thread in its entirety, I think you'll see at least some of the others are echoing my thoughts. Please consider changing the behavior.
    Last edited by Jim Neeley; 05-26-2011 at 12:24 PM.
    One can never have too many planes and chisels... or so I'm learning!!

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