Chinese lasers - they're here !!!

[Rodne Gold]

Dan , that will be at least 6 weeks to 2 months away...
the real proof of the pudding will be actual engraving results with real files , not just lines..remains to be seen what thruput is like , large area engraving , photo's , small text , circle smootheness, thin and thick material cutting and so on....
What concerns me most right now is the translation of exisiting Corel files into their drivers.. we shall see if it is indeed seamless and if not , how much modification is needed. Ah well , I shall spend some time fiddling and putting the machines thru their paces , generally when doing this on any machine , I start at the "impossible" end of the scale and work down to the easy end , that way I know what the machinery CAN'T do and its limits.

[Gerhard Fourie]

I have often contemplated using the red dot in the same way as you are describing. I have a Chinese machine of very similiar construction as yours and would appreciate more detail and even photos how you achieved this.

[Ian Franks]

Jit
Looking at your sale values there is money in wedding invites. We have done cupcake wrappers for weddings and money is not the problem. That is why it may be worthwhile looking again at wedding invites but pricing them with loads of design/customer time. IE get out of the printshop pricing mode. Then just smile nicely at the customers.
We only cut once the order has been paid and offer credit card payment on the website or EFT. Customers also come in to our shop and can pay there as well.

[Rodne Gold]

My laser fires thru a beam combiner , its a sort of lens/mirror at 45 degrees that is combined with the first optic mirror , its near the optical output of the tube before the first mirror.
What you actually have to do is drill a hole in the mirror holder back plate , remove the mirror and make a hole in the side of the machine , then you fire the laser at a target about 3m away and adjust the tube or the mirror holder or the red beam to make the red pointer co incide with the burn. that is really if you want to be totally anal about it , otherwise just align the red dot the same as the laser at the 2nd mirro , it should be quite accurate.

Some red dot pointers do NOT follow the beam path , they are not before the first optic , you cant do anything with thise.

[Rodne Gold]

Well , after a little fiddling to get the lasers set up (I wanted to run 2 lasers off one computer and send the same file to either within the cutting software which is not as easy as just having one laser attached) I finally got both running as I wanted.

Software installation (I don't have the latest version but will soon be getting it and the hardware required to run it) is fairly straightforward but not as seamless as I would like , the manual in good chinglish is still not idiotproof (I am rewriting it to be so) and some steps are a little confusing or not explained in detail. All the relevant instructions are there , but some vital settings are not highlighted enough.

I have Corel 11 and X3 installed , I would not recommend 11 as I had a lot of issues trying to use it with their driver , X3 was a lot easier to getting the Corel plug in/vba thing to work.

I haven't fiddled much yet , but one of the things i was trying to do was to see what 4-5pt text looks like on this machine (on perspex) and initially I was getting very poor results , however after tweaking some settings (there are a zillion settings . not for the faint hearted , you can control this machine to the nth degree) and slowing down a little bit , I got exceptional results , far better then my GCC's output at that size , I have a 10x loupe and inspected with that as well as by eye. As can be expected , output of very fine detail at maximum speed is compromised , slowing things down helps , however larger text and solid items exhibit extremely good results. Inspecting a solid square , I was blown away with the smoothness and lack of banding , lines or ridges , the output on perspex when inspected under 10x was as good as sandblasting with the finest grit , one could just make out the lines of the laser scan , but this is under 10x magnification!!!!

I have yet to see how this machine copes with complex existing Corel files , the plugin seems to do conversion to an AI file on the fly and then uses that in the driver. I do foresee that I might have to make some adjustments to work flow , but that will be something
I will have to live with. I didn't expect 4x the machine at 1/4 of the price , compromises are a part of the deal.

There are still some small things I am discovering that need to be improved hardware wise , the machine has a small recessed panel in front with 4 large knob type power/emergency stop switches , one for the machine itself, one for the laser ,one for each of the blower and air pump .
They will need to be dumped and replaced with smaller easier to use switches as the recess is too crowded to operate em easily, no biggie. I spoke to the factory about this and they said when I have done mine to my satisfaction , that they will implement this in their new builds.

It must be said that the factory is extremely proactive in a lot of respects , mails are answered very promptly , Provisional invoices are issued as quotes , they will answer any technical query you have with your build in detail (They are on skype so you can get answers instantly)
Setup and technical issues once you have your machine are easily solved in real time and if you really run into problems the factory tech support will "invade" your puter and offer remote assistance. They are keenly following my suggestions for improvements to their machines. This kind of performance is what mainstream buyers want and expect.

The main issue with chinese machines is "trust" , trust you will get a decent product after paying (their terms are30% upfront and 70% when the machine is loaded) , trust you will get some support , trust that warrantees will be honoured , trust that the machines will do what it says on the label. So far , all my expectations on these have been met or exceeded.

I was quoted $350 for new mainboards and LCD panels to run the new software , my machine builds were completed before the new stuff was implemented so were not delivered with em. The factory is sending me 3 new mainboards , 3 new lcd panels and the new software via DHL , and have requested I send my older stuff back (3 cos I had also ordered a spare , 2 on my machines , 1 spare set). However all I have to do is pay shipping both ways , I think this is a very fair and equitable deal...

My overall impression so far is still that these machines are a total bargain , I cannot see what can possibly really give rise to hardware issues and even so , spares are a joke re pricing.

I was quoted around $20 000 for a 40W mainsteam machine with a 750x500 bed , I have got a machine with double the power, more than double the bed size at 1/4 of the price.
I am spending the next week , when time permits (It's a little hectic at work right now) putting the 2 machines thru their paces and will post pics of output and will detail the operational aspects and report on any bugs.

I have to say something abut Vincent De Klerk , who brought in a machine before me and who let me look at and test on his before buying mine.
He helped us commission our machine and set them up on the computer , he spent 3 mornings with us , forgoing his own business to do so.
His help was invaluable and demonstrates the thing I like so much about this forum and it's laser community , the willingness to help other , give back and share and the altruism that is plainly evident. Vincent , you are a STAR!!!!

[Bruce Dorworth]

Rodney, thank you for doing such a great job explaining this.. I have a lot of question about setting up and using my Chinese laser, and rather than bog down this thread can I just email you dirrect? my email address is bruce at dorworth dot org

Here are a couple of chiller questions: On the chiller there are two connections, one labeled inlet the other labeled outlet. On the laser the are two connections labed the same way. Should the outlet from the chiller go to the inlet on the laser, then the outlet from the laser would go to the inlet on the chiller?

My chiller has a temp gauge on it, is there a recomended temp that this should be set at?

Thanks in advance,
Bruce

[Vicki Rivrud]

Hi Rodney,
We absolutely love our "Chinese" laser!

We Imported it to Florida USA almost 4 years ago. 150 watt 1200 x 900 table. We did learn the hard way that the 3000 chiller will deplete the life of the glass tube as it doesn't have the real capacity of cooling here in hot humid Florida. Barely able to work for 3 hours without having to shut 'er down for an hour then start back up. We upgraded ours to a CW5200. Works like a charm now. We use distilled water & anti-freeze and have yet had to change the contents after 6 months. Even with distilled water in the 3000 we had to cycle the water out completely & replace - got pretty costly. I was actually putting slim ice cubes in the chiller trying to cool down the bulb with the 3000.

Also it is a real nightmare to purchase a replacement glass bulb - we've had 2 insurance claims with DHL/UPICC , because of broken tubes in shipping. We now have established a working relationship with a great Chinese Bulb manufacturer and they have arrived well packed and no breakage. It is actually the inner part of the tube that will shatter like ice if jarred or dropped in shipping.
The laser purchase started out to primarily cut 1/4 wood (1/2 ply is a challenge so we purchased a 100mm lens and a long adapter from Rabbit USA) for our remote control airplane business but I branched out into a more creative side after reading all the great posts at SMC for inspiration.
I am engraving granite, crystal, glass, acrylic, mirror & wood, brick & tile, cutting paper & fabric as well as etching denim - you just have to play & experiment and write it down as sometimes lasercut will not keep you settings but rather defaults to the last file used. It can be frustrating & make a mess of a project. I always do a sample cut even if it was done before and double check my log! I keep a log book for all my projects! Scan gap or DPI is another factor too! Everything is 1 bit ( black & white) with no greyscale capability - photograve has helped give my engravings some tonal affect's there are ways & the Stucki filter too. Sometimes doing a vector cut instead engraving does a better job instead of simply engraving.

The current version of Lasercut 5.3 doesn't work seamlessly with Corel X4, actually Leetro told me it really only works with Corel 12 & AutoCAD 2000. They tell me they are working on a new version and hopefully it will do better.

File prep has been the most important step for me. I do all my creative work in Corel and then export as a dxf for use in Lasercut. All our cutting files have been done in DesignCAD or Rhino also exported as a dxf -autocad 200 and imported into lasercut. So we pretty much use lasercut similar to a print driver rather than do anything heavy duty in it.

You will find that aligment & leveling will have to be done quite often. I am also having to work on power compensation for distance on table. The laser does not cut well farthest from the source when trying to cut an entire piece of wood - can be frustrating when it doesn't cut all the way through when trying to maximize an entire sheet!

I laughed when I read your phrase "Chinglish" - when I first started using Lasercut I had no clue what "Conner" power was until I realized they meant Corner power. The manuals leave much to be desired but after going over it several times it makes more sense each time. Since you already have a good foundation using lasers it should be alot easier than it was for us. We had no background in this niche so we learned by the set of our pants - trial & error and I read everything I could get my hands on!

All in all, support from our factory was good to begin with and we imported a 2nd machine, but if you do not continue to buy something,their support dwindles.

I seem to learn something new everyday with this laser and lasercut! Features I didn't realize it had and then it also have some quirks & limitations. I just find a way around it either in Corel or CAD.

I look forward to you "direct red beam" remedy & future post.

Gook luck and keep those post coming

Sunny Florida - Vicki - JR Laser Solutions

[Rodne Gold]

Hiya Bruce , yep output from chiller to laser input and vice versa. The CW3000 chiller is absolute junk , if you have a 60/80 + w tube it's not at all adequate , a cw5000 chiller is the real mccoy, but is normally $350-450 more as an upgrade. The 3000 can be replaced by a bucket and an aquarium pump its so basic. You need to keep the water temp below 35c or thereabouts . I was actually thinking that for $400 , one can either buy a local model or get an old messed up chest freezer for $100 and fill it with ice and run a coiled water tube thru to the machine for real chilling....even adding a decent radiator and some fans to a 3000 would be a help.

Vicki , it's good to hear that 4 years on , you are still going well with your laser. The ones I have use RDcam as a "front end' , I have fiddled with the package and its pretty good as a design package , as I said , the corel interface/plugin looks like a glorified importer. I really wanted to use these lasers to do a slightly different type of job from our existing ones , and might have to design specifically for them which may or may not be an issue but we have many other machines and cannot always use the same files/programs for them and they all have different ways of dealing with the design package anyway. Our tekcel uses profilelab/engravelab , our Isels use autocad, lasers use Corel , large format printer uses corel but its main "interface' is a wasatch rip and so on...

I asked the mnfgrs about the antifreeze and they said it's not needed , but I have spoken to users that say its more of an an anti corrosive. I have a hi po car building workshop and we use antifreeze in radiators to stop ally heads corroding but more importantly to raise the boiling pt of the water as this combined with a pressure cap elevates the boiling pt to much higher than normal and this stops the car overheating due to steam pockets. By far the best mixture for tranferring heat is actually plain water...

As to the levelling thing , we were very anal when setting up , checking everything was level with respect to the floor and to the actual table , losing serious power as you get further along the table could be indicative more of the table not being level than alignment.
Adjust your head so it just skims the table surface and check the gap doesnt vary at diff points on the table. Easiest to microadjust the table - even if you like 1/20th" out , it will affect things.

The RECI tubes are superbly packed , the other tubes not so well , but pretty well , obviously the Chinese have learned overkill here is the answer....

All lasers are really 1 bit devices , either on or off, the various drivers interpret greyscale , photograv is actually a far better and more consistent way of doing so for a laser than may drivers. If you search for the "gold method" , you will find an alternative (read free) way of acomplishing the same thing as Photograv ... I actually use Pgrav in my setup as it's easy for my staff to use. Works very well for complex clipart too , avoiding converting fades and odd colours as well as stopping hidden vectors and all other nasties surfacing.

In lasercut , is there no way you can save any parameter files? Perhaps look at where Lasercut saves its default config files and then create different "master" directories for the "parameter" set you wish to work with. IE a directory for wood , 3mm perspex and so on , load lasercut from these ?

[Bruce Dorworth]

Rodney, thanks for the prompt response. My laser came with a cw5000 chiller. So at least they did something correct. I bought a rotary attachment and they sent me the one like yours with the 4 jaw chuck. What does your other Rotary look like? Is there a place to buy a 3rd party rotary attachment?

Bruce

[Rodne Gold]

This is what my other rotary looks like , I have yet to try em , not even sure where they connect up , they came instructionless , however both were under $350 combined , so thought I may as well get em...
We hardly use the rotarys with our GCC's , so it's not likely we will use em much.
Seems all the chinese lasers use the same type of Rotary , probably some town out in the sticks making only rotarys - seems to be the chinese way , one city , one product
Im sure you can use any other rotary form another laser so long as you use the stepper from your laser supplier on it. My GCC's use servo motors with shaft encoders , that wont work on the Chinese machines. My rotary section in the chinese driver has menu for setting the amount of steps per revolution , so obviously its fairly configurable.

[Bruce Dorworth]

Thanks Rodney

Bruce

[George M. Perzel]

Hi Gang;
I just saved about $30,000-thanks totally to Mr. Rodne Gold, whose pioneering spirit, tenacity, determination, and attention to detail caused him to investigate the Chinese Laser capabilities rather than just dismiss them as poor copies of western technology.
Some of us are old enough to remember when "Made in Japan" represented cheap value and low quality- amazing how quickly that has changed. I am afraid that the same perception exists today in the minds of many when "Made in China" is uttered. That perception will too change in the not too distant future when China becomes the dominant economic power.
OK- enough of the Nostadamus stuff
Rodne is, and has been for many years, one of the leading laser gurus on this forum. His knowledge of the field and related sciences knows no limits and his advice is accurate, detailed and tempered by years of experience in the trenches. He is careful and precise (he calls it anal) when venturing into new territory and searches for answers with a bent towards the practical and what the market can bear.
Bottom line- he's a man who can be trusted to provide sound advice and honest opinions. I was 24 hours away from plunking down $40K for a new laser with only slightly more capability than I have now. After reading Rodne's "Dispatches from China" and sending him a barrage of questions, I am buying the same machine (big one) that he bought, except mine will be a double head-double RECI laser tube setup. I am also purchasing a raft of spares . Total for everything = $7200 plus $1.6K for ocean freight, customs clearance, and ground freight to my door.
Is it all rosy and right? No- I have a new machine to learn and new software to wade through, but, I'm still young enough to like the challenge and excitement; besides, you can only do so much fishing!
I will post progress on my machine as a followup to Rodne's-I figure I'm about 8 weeks behind him in the learning cycle and will be eagerly watching him as he plows new ground. Finally- Thanks, Rodne-really appreciate your help and support.
Best Regards;
George
Laserarts

[Rodne Gold]

Well, the real "pioneer" that sparked all this is Vincent De klerk , if it was not for his posting this thread
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...e-laser-cutter.
I might not have really sprung into action quite so readily , he really was the one that took the big risk. As much as vincent's post helped me make up my mind to take the leap of faith , hopefully mine will enable others to make even better informed decisions

Both him and I are convinced that we are being ripped off in terms of equipment. If you actually look at a laser and the components used to make one , there is no earthly reason that they should cost as much if not more than a luxury car....
I especially think that mainstream tube mnfgrs are the worst offendors in this respect.

It must be said at this stage that the machines we have and what you are ordering are not really rolls royces at bicycle prices , there are some issues and if you are expecting absolute prefection in terms of construction/engineering , ease of use and software , you are not going to get it. This machine is not plug and play. However if you are expecting a piece of junk that will fail in 3 hours and is totally useless , assembled in some run down barn in rural china by peasants with straw hats who work 18 hr days for a bowl of rice you cant be further from the truth.

So far , the construction issues and the integration with corel issues are a minor inconvenience and not major stumbling blocks and wont change workflow to any huge extent. On the plus side , there are features these machines have that some mainstream vendors would gain a huge competitive advantage if implemented. For eg , there is kerf width compensation in the driver, which to me is a far more valuable feature than 3d engraving
Surprisingly enough , the chinese software/driver appears that it too has 3d:
From the manual :" Outputdirect: On the grayscale bitmap, grayscale graphicsfor the actual output, where both the deep color of the laser energy, laserenergy where light color small." - lol , - Welcome to Chinglish
I take this to mean that if you enable output direct in greyscale;/bitmap processing, then power varies from high for dark areas to low for light - will try it out
In reality the biggest single problem is the relatively poorly written and poorly explained manuals. I have read them many times now and am discovering a lot more "buried" information each time. The difficulty is that the software cannot be "trial run" without a machine attached, so to really get to grips with things , one has to experiment and it's a lot easier then to work out what things really mean.
I havent really done much work on my mainstream machines for years , having operators and designers , the new machines are also exciting to me in that it is a new challenge and a new system to master.

[Richard Rumancik]

. . . Both him and I are convinced that we are being ripped off in terms of equipment. . . I especially think that mainstream tube mnfgrs are the worst offendors in this respect.

I don't have enough information to say that North American suppliers are charging too much for equipment; they are probably charging what required based on their costs of labor and materials and doing business internationally. The economy in China is obviously much different than North America. GCC is based in Taiwan, Republic of China, which is not the same as mainland China. Their economy is probably closer to that of North America or Europe, and you will see that their pricing on the LaserPro series is in the same ballpark as ULS, Epilog, Trotec, etc. (Perhaps it is still a bit lower; I haven't compared recently.) But as you market internationally the price goes up. You need to support parts depots, technical staff, marketing, translators to prepare proper manuals, etc etc. And those people want to be paid North American/European wages. A distributor who needs to stock machines, and fly all over the country with a machine going to trade shows, needs to be paid. So I would expect that as the Chinese companies enter the world markets for laser systems, the prices will go up along with all the additional expenses.

Same goes with the tube manufacturers. Is Synrad charging too much? I don't know - if it was so easy to make a metal sealed laser tube, and they are making so much money, why isn't everybody doing it? I don't understand why the Chinese only supply/manufacture glass tubes. Surely the old patents on the metal sealed tubes have run out - maybe the Chinese would be a few years behind the latest technology, but that would still be better than glass tubes. Rodne, did you discover any Synrad type clones on your travels? If not, why do you think they don't offer them? I think the glass tubes are a significant weak point in the Chinese systems. The life is too low, they require fussy cooling systems, and they are too difficult to handle and ship.

[Rodne Gold]

I saw machines with chinese RF tubes , I think there is one manufacturer in china , the tube was not like any other I have seen in terms of housing etc, It wasnt high powered. 30w?
I didnt bother with it as the mnfg of my machines only uses it in their galvo's as their flying head machines are optimised for glass tubes and they have the benefit of much more experience with em.
I dont think the transport or cooling are much of an issue , my tubes(4) all arrived safe and sound and hooking up a chiller is not rocket science. It seems that undercooling and overdriving the glass tubes are the causes of failures.
The cost of a higher powered glassed tube , even a premium one with a 8000 hour life and 1 year warrantee is extremely cheap and the tube is extremely simple, the cost of a 80-100w tube is $500 for a premium and $150 normal (3 mo warranted) I pay $3500+ as an exhange deal on a synrad and or a coherent 30w with a 6 mo warrantee - would hate to think what their 80-100w would cost...$7k?

The worst of my experiences with RF tubes is actually their lifespan , I really havent ever got near claimed hours on any of the almost 15 tubes I have used in my lasering career. I too havent had flawless reliability with any of them.

As an aside , I think both my glass tubes , a cheapy 60w an an expensive 80w actually outperform my RF tubes when it comes to how good the engraving looks. Of course cutting is a no brainer , the higher power tubes really work well.

If the traditional mainstream laser pricing/distribution model is becoming outmoded , the co's need to react to whats happening out there and offer cost effective solutions , which they clearly arent doing
They must be able to reduce costs dramatically as R&D and tooling costs must be long amortised , its not like anyone is offering anything substantially better than 5 yrs ago....
As I have said before , if you want a plug and play rolls royce machine and need to be hand held , a chinese laser wont suit you..but give it time .. they will get near..