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Thread: Chinese lasers - they're here !!!

  1. #46
    I'm unsure how anyone thinks the US, or European companies CAN compete with those prices? When someone can sell you parts cheaper than you can buy the materials, how can you compete? You can't have people pay YOU to come to work for them. It's all done with a huge mask on and we, as buyers, tend to hold our nose, close our eyes, and hit the "Buy now" button on it, knowing full well that if we really thought about it, we'd not do it because it's not a level playing field. When China devalues their currency to a point that no one can compete and their workers drop dead at 40 because they worked in the granite factories Rodney posted photos of for 20 years, breathing dust that slowly kills them, how can we compete?

    They have no safety concerns for the people (or little, when it comes to hazardous materials), they pay people next to nothing, and they devalue their currency. Do I blame Epilog or Universal for not being able to compete with that? No, I don't.

    Also keep in mind, buying a machine for $15,000 (that's about what a 45W cost these days), gets you a machine plus life time support for free. Free. I bet if these companies had to support their products on the level Epilog and Universal do, and pay their people a fair wage, they wouldn't be so inexpensive.

    It's apples and oranges to me.

    I'm not saying anything about the quality or their ability to engrave by any means. They probably do a decent job. However, let's not pretend this is a fair competition and that it's the US manufacturers that are taking advantage of us. That's miles away from the real fact on why they are so inexpensive.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  2. #47
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    Competition

    Let's face it, if a competitor buys a chinese laser, after you have invested in a mainstream one, their initial costs are going to be far less than yours. They can then afford to undercut your pricing, and if their marketing is good, you will have to drop yours
    in order to retain your client base.
    My laser is nearing time for replacement, so I have to seriously consider a chinese built one. I have been watching these threads with great interest and can't thank Rodney enough for all his information.
    Hilton Lister. NZ
    GCC Spirit 60w. Meistergram 912, Gravograph IT, Old Roland Vinyl Cutter, Hand engraving, Retired

  3. #48
    This has been an extremely informative and useful discussion. Please take care not to let it sink into a political storm that will cause deletions or closing of the thread.
    Mike Null

    St. Louis Laser, Inc.

    Trotec Speedy 300, 80 watt
    Gravograph IS400
    Woodworking shop CLTT and Laser Sublimation
    Dye Sublimation
    CorelDraw X5, X7

  4. #49
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    HI Mike,
    Nicely said.

    Back when I first came to SMC I got slammed a couple of times for having a chinese laser - getting what you paid for, not American , blah blah - So I have seen a big shift in acceptance of the Chinese lasers - now that the ecomomic winds have changed so.

    So much of what we use is made in China - heck turn your keyboard over - made in china. We really researched hard before importing our chinese laser - so much of what the Made in America brands are actually "Assembled in the US" of foreign components.

    We have imported several laser machines and this December imported our 1st CNC Router. All machine were well made and the factory worked very closely with us on our specifications.
    From Sunny Florida,
    Vicki

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vicki Rivrud View Post
    Back when I first came to SMC I got slammed a couple of times for having a chinese laser - getting what you paid for, not American , blah blah - So I have seen a big shift in acceptance of the Chinese lasers - now that the ecomomic winds have changed so.
    Vicki,

    I think you're seeing a change in level of acceptance because the Chinese machines are getting better, not because of economics. Ten years ago Chinese lasers (what ones existed) were hard to find in The States, and they were pretty much junk. Fast forward to five years ago and quality control was still a complete crapshoot, but they were learning, and the machines could be made to work with some serious cajoling. Fast forward to today and the manuals are more easily understood, quality control has improved, drivers and mainstream program integration has improved, etc. They are not only improving their machines drastically, they have improved the workflow, and a poor workflow is one of the biggest killers to a sustained business model.
    Hi-Tec Designs, LLC -- Owner (and self-proclaimed LED guru )

    Trotec 80W Speedy 300 laser w/everything
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  6. #51
    I don't think anyone in this thread has said they are poor quality. Not a single post that I saw.

    I don't say you should or shouldn't buy one. I think Rodney has said it over and over, that it's not a plug and play unit. That, in fact, is exactly what dozens have said over the years. That's not slamming the Chinese machines, that's being honest. They aren't and Rodney expresses that repeatedly. That may be fine for you, but it may not be fine for someone that's not "handy" with figuring things out. No right or wrong, just different, and if you know that going in, you'll be fine in both cases.

    My statement wasn't meant to be political, but just raise a simple fact, you can't compare the pricing for the 2 because they are playing under the same rules. When the material cost for an item here is more than the entire part cost, material, machining, and assembly, we're not comparing apples to apples.

    I'd be willing to bet that 3 of those machines would have a tough time keeping up with one Trotec in raster engraving. If you were vectoring, the 3 Chinese would probably take the Trotec to school on production. A 45W Trotec was running around $17,500 not long ago, so they aren't as much as they used to be.

    It all depends on what you want to do with it. If I was rastering, I'd probably buy the Trotec, if I were vector cutting all day, I'd probably buy 3 Chinese machines.

    Just my opinion. I have no problems with anyone buying one, two, three, or a dozen. Buy all you want.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  7. #52
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    I am really fearful of this thread devolving to something with nationalistic overtones , so lets not really go there
    I will just give my take on things as I saw them in China as to how stuff is "cheap"

    its not underpaid overexploited workers and a govt sponsored low exchange rate entirely, IMO its a huge combination of factors , the cost of living there is cheap , expectation of labour is not as high as in western countries , the state promotes business and builds fantastic infrastructure for manufacturing and business , the economys of scale are enormous , there are very few middlemen , work ethic and productivity are high and so on. They pay the same for their imported commodities that we in the west do , they just convert them a lot more efficiently.

    Yes , there are inequities compared to highly sophisticated western norms , but nothing worse than in my country or india. Never saw the type of slums and beggars/vagrants etc that I see here and other places
    The only thing that really bothered me in China was the level of pollution , even driving out 100 miles into some rural areas , there is a miasma of grey mist , its pollution.
    The govt are clamping down big time on those that refuse to see to the safety of workers , draconian penalties are implemented , like 20 years in Jail etc.

    Anyway , thats besides the point , one has to do as ones conscience dictates as to purchasing and it's admireable that there are folks out there who will support their industry/country by buying locally. We have the same problem over here in SA with a number of industrys , like clothing. cheap chinese imports are doing the local industry in , the consumers are driving this tho. globalisation is great in some respects but really bad in others.

    Getting back to the lasers , as Dan so rightly points out , workflow is a pretty vital part of the picture and over the last few days , we have been experimenting with this as well as putting the driver thru it's paces. In common with a LOT of lasers , the intricacies and vagaries of the driver have not been explained in the nth degree of depth and it has taken quite a bit of time and head scratching to work out where we have gone wrong and what does what and what affects what...

    Albeit you can work directly from corel, autocad (and now Cadian with the new software) , it still is somewhat of a kludge solution as all the cad packages port in one way or another to Laserworks or RDcad (diff name , same package) . By far the better way to work is to use Corel to design , export to ai and open laserworks and control the laser from there.

    The fly in the ointment is that most lasers will have a WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) interface from corel , IE whats on screen will engrave as you see it. Its not the same with these lasers as they do not see , for eg , a line with width as having width. ANY closed object is treated as a solid filled object in this driver and lines cannot be "rastered" as they will all be hairlines. It will give an error if you say to process a line in scan mode.

    So if you want lines with thickness , you need to use Corel to convert object to outline and use that .. alternatively , it's pretty easy to convert the graphic to a high res bitmap and then just engrave that. Its no issue to have cutting and bitmaps and vector entities in the lasers driver and to process various colours or layers all in one go.

    At the end of it all , all the lasers we use DO convert to 1 bit bitmaps when doing scanning , all lasers are actually a "dot matrix" printers in scan mode.

    The laserworks design package supplied with the machine is pretty much ok , good for designing simple stuff so Corel should still be the design interface. The driver that controls the laser is very powerful , far more powerful than any I have come across. Just about everything is configurable and you can do some amazing stuff with it.

    To put it in a nutshell , one can change your design philosophy in Corel to cope with this machine or just use the "old" way and have to do a further conversions for really complex cdrs. What really worked well was converting greyscale etc via Photograv , the driver itself has various types of conversion , but photograv works exceptionally.

    I am not concerned at the change of workflow , there are some amazing features that will cut down seriously on processing time that will more than compensate.

    We design on Corel for our CnC router and we need to do similar conversions for lines with thickness - so it's no biggie.

    We have discovered some REALLY great features , for eg

    You can give it a material size and it will self array a single element or group to most effectively fill the size of material available

    It is real easy to set the order of cuts or layers or even entities it cuts/engraves first

    Optimisation is stunning , you can actually tell the software to simulate the laser head path and amend it if you wish , it does a sterling job automagically of cutting down engraving time

    You can compensate for kerf width inwards or out

    It has a trace function for black and white bitmaps as well as a scanner interface

    It has a "dot" cut function , IE you can cut a line using dots- you can configure the dot time , the dot length and the distance between dots , IE set up a very delicate PPI or dashed perforation , will be very good for wood to minimise charring

    You have many options where to start the engraving relative to absolute home and from which point in the graphic to start engraving and where to end once it finishes

    If your power goes off in the middle of a job , when you power up the machine , it asks whether you want to carry on the job where it got disrupted

    You can get the co ordinates of the head at any position

    You can pause the job and jog the head away and it comes back to where it was on resume

    There is a pen up function , IE it can move the table down when it starts automatically and raise it up at a certain point , to clear lips on deep dishes etc. You can set this manually and allow the machine to read the various co ordinates and path and it stores this!!

    There is an autofocus option

    It has a stamp mode

    It has a quasi 3d mode

    You can set ramp speed , acceleration when no laser is firing and when it fires and compensate for any backlash

    It has a job estimator , in terms of time , before you do anything.

    It also reports total x distance travelled , Y distance , total time on , total laser time and so on.

    You can download your files to the laser and run it stand alone - also use a flash disk or a HD

    You can set both speeds and power very easily on the fly

    It has a function that can either dot all 4 corners of the extents of a graphic before or after it engraves it, it can do a dry run of the extents or you can tell it to cut the extents (a rectangle surrounding the engraved graphic) and tell it how much white space you want it to leave.

    You can order the direction of the cut, not just the order and define the start point of a cut.

    You can tell it to start the cut outside the element to be cut or inside it , for eg if you want an absolutely perfect circle , you tell it to start the cut on the sheet outside of the circle and to cut the circle , without any start or endpoint notches. Vice versa if you want a perfect hole

    You can raster in the X and Y direction , ie left to right and top to bottom , you can choose to fire bidirectionally and unidirectionally in both modes

    You can raster bottom to top or vice versa

    You can tell the machine that you have some sort of feeder and set all sorts of feeder parameters.

    You can tell it to close all unclosed curves where endpoints are a certain distance from one another and to conver any entity that is lines into a closed curve and set the smoothness of that curve

    You can use ACAD SHX fonts (lots of single lines here)

    You can engrave a vector graphic and tell it to cut the outlines (or vector engrave at high speed to clean up edges)

    It has a cluster mode where small spread out elements will be done one at a time instead of sweeping the whole graphic left and right.

    You can delete overlaps , so if you are cutting a matrix of rectangles , it will delete all overlapping lines if you stack em with all the sides touching each other , ie it wont cut rectangle after rectangle , it will only cut coincident lines once , a huge time saver.

    There are many more "features" , we have yet to discover what they all do...

    Bad thing with our machines is you can run em open , they didnt come with safety interlocks albeit the mainboard has a function to use em , when my staff uses the machines , i will install the safety mag switches.

    The exhaust of the lasers is really really VERY good , even if you have the door open , the smoke dissapears , you have to loook closely to see if the machine is actually engraving as there is no smoke - it's whipped out .
    Rodney Gold, Toker Bros trophies, Cape Town , South Africa :
    Roland 2300 rotary . 3 x ISEL's ..1m x 500mm CnC .
    Tekcel 1200x2400 router , 900 x 600 60w Shenui laser , 1200 x 800 80w Reci tube Shenhui Laser
    6 x longtai lasers 400x600 60w , 1 x longtai 20w fiber
    2x Gravo manual engravers , Roland 540 large format printer/cutter. CLTT setup
    1600mm hot and cold laminator , 3x Dopag resin dispensers , sandblasting setup, acid etcher

  8. #53
    If anyone is reading my posts as nationistic, then you are misunderstanding my position. I do not suggest you only buy from your own country in my posts. In fact, I recommended a machine built in Austria for fast rastering. I also said I'd buy Chinese machines if I were vector cutting.

    I have bought and owned Chinese made machines, used them in daily production until I made enough money to buy Japanese I repeatedly said buy the one that fits your needs and Rodney has done an excellent job at explaining how his machine works, which, might be perfect for some, and not so easy for others. A really great review there, Rodney, thanks for sharing.
    Lasers : Trotec Speedy 300 75W, Trotec Speedy 300 80W, Galvo Fiber Laser 20W
    Printers : Mimaki UJF-6042 UV Flatbed Printer , HP Designjet L26500 61" Wide Format Latex Printer, Summa S140-T 48" Vinyl Plotter
    Router : ShopBot 48" x 96" CNC Router Rotary Engravers : (2) Xenetech XOT 16 x 25 Rotary Engravers

    Real name Steve but that name was taken on the forum. Used Middle name. Call me Steve or Scott, doesn't matter.

  9. #54
    Rodney:

    I have a lot of experience in what you are talking about with the conversion between a Corel/Illustrator file to another piece of software. We use Gravostyle for rotary and laser work and sometimes exporting from Corel or Adobe is a huge PITA. Every path needs to be perfect. If anything is slightly open, it won't import properly. It's a huge annoyance. There are a lot of tricks to get around this.

    Export the graphic as a high resolution JPEG/PNG into Inkscape. Vector trace it. Then go and import the AI/EPS file in and add true vector text. Not a perfect fix, but it's a 5 minute fix instead of a 1 hour fix.

    I also strongly suggest you do your text layouts right in this software. It's frankly a waste of time to do it the other way around. It's very easy to miss the grouping of an "o" or an "e" and the whole job is ruined.

    If I had to be frank, this sounds like a direct rip off of Gravostyle. A lot of the same features. We use Gravostyle about 98% of the time to do our work. Occasionally we'll get a whole plaque setup by the customer in an AI or EPS. In those circumstances we'll just run the whole job from Illustrator. Although there are a lot of frustrating things with Gravostyle, there are a huge number of time saving features. Variable text is the best feature the program has over Corel/Illustrator.
    Equipment: IS400, IS6000, VLS 6.60, LS100, HP4550, Ricoh GX e3300n, Hotronix STX20
    Software: Adobe Suite & Gravostyle 5
    Business: Trophy, Awards and Engraving

  10. #55
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    Hi,
    We use the automotive (not RV) anti-freeze & distilled water to prevent the algae growth. The bulb has been nice and cool - have been engraving bricks & granite lately - for what seems like hours, without a problem. I also cut cupcake wrappers & fabric so I can go from one exteme to another without a hitch. With this new freon based chiller, we now have experienced condensation, so we are adjusting the settings so its not too cold. Cooling is no longer an issue.

    Lasercut has a quirk, even when the ecp file is saved, when the file is reopened, sometimes the last file used or the default settings appear instead of the settings that should have been saved.

    Initially I used save this file(to name & create the ecp file) then, if changes are made , Instead of saving the file, I have found that when I have finished with a ecp file, I select "new file", (instead of exit,close,save, save as) which will ask me if I want to save changes to file, select yes and then the workspace is cleared and ready for a new file.

    When I re-open my ecp file all my settings are intact. Another little quirk - file names should be no more than 9 characters - if too long, the PAD will not register the file name and a soft error occurs.

    There is also another phenomenom I deal with - Laser Compensation for Long Distances - when cutting an entire sheet of wood - for example a nest of parts or puzzles or earring, whatever - even if the machine is level, aligned, focused etc- there are differences in the power especially at the farthest distance from output.

    In the Leetro Lasercut manual V1.6 5-2010 there is mention of the power compensation & several adjustments that must be made.


    compensation.jpg

    My question to Leetro is "what are these several adjustments needed?" I am awaiting a response.

    The rotary device wasn't available when we imported our first laser, but I am looking forward to getting one and learning how to hook up & use. I have found several pdf's on subject at other sites.

    Blue skies,
    Vicki

  11. #56
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    Hi Dan,
    I agree to a point - My first laser was great, it did the job that was needed and we didn't know any better & didn't have to pay another laser company to do our work.

    After recommending several changes for both the machine & manual, my second laser was even better. At least they are listening. AND getting better. We also just imported a CNC Router and are making recommendations for change even though their "QC" was tight. At least they listen and are eager to learn & please.

    I am still using the 4 year old machine and it is working just fine! I found that file prep is 75%, knowing how to handle settings 15% and the machine doing its job - 10%. The only replacement has been the bulb, which came from a bad batch 4 years ago. the bulbs now are a bit bigger and better made.

    But I must say - there are many who are now looking at the Chinese laser because the price tag is so different and in these economic time who can afford to over-pay, this was my major point.

    We have a business assocate who bought a high dollar 60 watt and when he came to try our 150 watt Chinese laser, that we purchased for a fraction of his, he laughed made the statement Chinese stuff was junk- 4 years ago! Now today when he needs to replace his - it's another story. He found that our Chinese laser could do much more than his model even though he sprung his lungs for the equipment & software.

    Again - my referance was not just to this topic post but to several others I have read here at the Creek. Just an observation how opinions are changing.

    For someone buying a Chinese laser, today - they have no clue what the quality was 10 years ago - just what the price tag is now & it is so much less than what is available in the states.

    Anyway - we are all just trying to share our own experiences to help others not to have to re-invent the wheel

    Blue skies,
    Vicki
    Last edited by Vicki Rivrud; 06-08-2011 at 10:26 AM.

  12. #57
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    Ross , your idea sounds great , I will investigate it , easy way to get the islands and fills you need. Text in the laserworks software is basic in the extreme , nothing near corel , however the text imports very well from Corel to the package so will mess around a bit with it all. still early days for us and I have my designer , my workshop manager and myself playing with it all so between the 3 of us , we should get it right Oddly enough we thought the software had a LOT in common with Engravelab and profile lab which we use to run our Tekcel cnc off..
    25+ years ago , I bought my first CnC engraver/router (isel's) and all we had was Autocad to run it off , had to write my own post processors too - things have come a long way since then..

    Vicki , As far as I can see , one can change your operating system quite easily on your laser , it's really the mainboard and lcd panel that seem to control the whole setup , the steppers and stepper drivers , laser tube firing etc are all configureable from the mainboard and its software and can easily be controlled , it all seems quite a nice open system. I have the wiring diagrams of the mainboards at hand , and it all looks quite simple.
    I think one of the factors that make these machines so affordable is the fact that all the different brands use more or less the same components and obviously there is one company that specialises in making each of them , my head and lens holder seems the same as most other lasers I have seen , and it was a a "princely" $12!!!!! You really have to make vast quantities of them to sell at that price. One of my engineering pals said he would come in at the $750 mark to fabricate a one off....
    I think in your config file , what they mean by several adjustments are that you need to try several compensation figures till you hit on the right one. I havent really tried to see how power varies over distance in our machines as I havent engraved a whole sheet , but doing the same thing with the same settings at different points on the tables gives more or less the same results.
    I recon the prime market for the chinese machines are users that have had other machines and are pretty experienced and are looking to expand production at the cheapest cost or just want to have back up machines. One has to remember that 4x machines at 1/4 the max engraving speed of a single will not equal the single , they will have far higher thruput as all jobs vary and not all can use full speed. Plus you have massive redundancy.
    Rodney Gold, Toker Bros trophies, Cape Town , South Africa :
    Roland 2300 rotary . 3 x ISEL's ..1m x 500mm CnC .
    Tekcel 1200x2400 router , 900 x 600 60w Shenui laser , 1200 x 800 80w Reci tube Shenhui Laser
    6 x longtai lasers 400x600 60w , 1 x longtai 20w fiber
    2x Gravo manual engravers , Roland 540 large format printer/cutter. CLTT setup
    1600mm hot and cold laminator , 3x Dopag resin dispensers , sandblasting setup, acid etcher

  13. #58
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    First Job on the 60w machine , cutting 1 mm thickness PETG 40mm diameter disks (14 000 , as backings for a cheap domed badge)
    Cycle time at 80% power on our smaller 60w machine is 6 secs a piece , 1400 minutes or 24 hrs run time... We could get a better cycle time , maybe 4.5 to 5 secs , but the material buckles so we have slowed down and increased power to make sure we cut thru it all.
    We making $1.30 per badge , but if we had to cut and supply the discs to a customer , would prolly make round 20-25c a piece , so toal profit would be $2800 minimum ... 2 Jobs like that and 2 weeks processing , we pay for the machine...
    Rodney Gold, Toker Bros trophies, Cape Town , South Africa :
    Roland 2300 rotary . 3 x ISEL's ..1m x 500mm CnC .
    Tekcel 1200x2400 router , 900 x 600 60w Shenui laser , 1200 x 800 80w Reci tube Shenhui Laser
    6 x longtai lasers 400x600 60w , 1 x longtai 20w fiber
    2x Gravo manual engravers , Roland 540 large format printer/cutter. CLTT setup
    1600mm hot and cold laminator , 3x Dopag resin dispensers , sandblasting setup, acid etcher

  14. #59
    Just makes so much sense.

    So Rodney, we are looking into an XY carraige machine, just to expand our product line. I'm not really an engineer and most of the things you have explained are a little alien to me. How hard would it be for me to get one of these and possibly pay someone to set it up. I would rather give some one who knows what they are doing £500-1000 and sort it and still have a massive powerful fully working machine for maybe £5000? Unless you fancy a free flight to the UK and hook mine up!?!
    Jit Patel
    London UK

    30w Trotec Speedmarker CL (Galvo) with 400mm & 250mm lens
    80w Trotec Speedy 400 with Rotary, Vacuum Table, Cutting Lamellas, 2" & 1.5" lens, Pass through
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  15. #60
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    Jiten , I think you can do it yourself
    Apart from major savings , it's the best way to learn , you have resources to help you along the way , the factory , remote assistance from the tech , tech via skype , this forum , me via skype and so on.
    I would love a free flight , but at the moment , Im "flighted out" from the china thing....
    I really cant see how you can lose , go for a single or double headed 1300x900 or 1200x800 with 2 80w reci tubes
    Or go for a single headed 1200x800 with 80w and a much bigger machine with 150w (for cutting)
    The combo that would be REALLY good for you , imo , is a 80w 1200x800 and a 80w Galvo. Under GBP10k with shipping and spares. You would instantly double production AND add the large format engraving stuff AND add decent thick material cutting...
    Rodney Gold, Toker Bros trophies, Cape Town , South Africa :
    Roland 2300 rotary . 3 x ISEL's ..1m x 500mm CnC .
    Tekcel 1200x2400 router , 900 x 600 60w Shenui laser , 1200 x 800 80w Reci tube Shenhui Laser
    6 x longtai lasers 400x600 60w , 1 x longtai 20w fiber
    2x Gravo manual engravers , Roland 540 large format printer/cutter. CLTT setup
    1600mm hot and cold laminator , 3x Dopag resin dispensers , sandblasting setup, acid etcher

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