More on rubbing out a Maloof finish

[Juan Hovey]

I'm back with yet another question about rubbing out a Maloof finish. This time I've ended up with a splotchy surface - baby-butt smooth but splotchy. What am I doing wrong?

I'm working on European beech - the top of a small cabinet. I filled the pores with Jassco paste filler, sanded it lightly the next day, then began applying the Maloof finish. I flooded the surface the first time around and let it sit for a while, then wiped it off and let it dry overnight. In succeeding days I applied the finish and wet sanded it, starting with 600 grit and proceeding to 2000 grit.

Thinking I might take advantage of some dry weather, I waited half a day only after applying the first coat - that is, the flooded coat - before wet sanding. Thereafter I waited 24 hours before having at it again, and I waited more than 48 hours before this last go-round with 2000 grit paper.

The result, a cloudy and splotchy surface - baby-butt smooth to the touch but not so pretty to the eye, seen in a raking light.

What did I do wrong? How can I improve matters?

Thanks to any and all who help out!

[Scott Holmes]

Maloof's finish is an oil/varnish blend, an in-the-wood finish. An oil/varnish blend is too soft to provied a film that can be "rubbed out". Rubbing out usually implies a hard film finish.

As for the blotchy coloring... my guess is the paste filler you used is not accepting the oil/varnsih blend as you expected.

Oil/varnish blends soak into the wood and "pop" the grain. Filler has no grain so it usually looks terrrible. At this point if you can't accept the existing finish; you have to decide if you want the use a chemical stripper and start over OR look for a glaze caot to hide the results. I suggest starting over. Beech is a nice wood; hiding the grain would not be my choice.

[Chris Fournier]

Before any of us can give you really useful advice we need to know what you mean by "Maloof Finish". Is it a can of off the shelf finish that you bought or is it a mixture of ingredients that you mixed up yourself? What is it's composition? Varnish with a bit of oil, oil with a bit of varnish, all oil, all varnish?

Is your finish compatible with the pore filler that you used?

If your "Maloof Finish" is mostly oil then you'll never get the results that you're after and if you're using water as a lubricant then you will get a mess. If indeed your finish is mostly oil then what you have from your desription of the process and the results is a well polished piece of oily wood with some pore filler in it; essentially no finish at all and oil and water are messing things up.

I've been down this road with Scott before, he claims that an oil varnish blend is an in the wood finish with no film building. This is not necessarily the case unless you can identify the ratio of oil to varnish.

As a bit of a WAG I'd say add more varnish to your conncotion and I bet that you'll be able to rub it out as you are, but don't start sanding a finish until you have enough of a dry film build otherwise, you'll end up with some film covered areas and some burnished raw wood which would give you the sheen/cloud issues that you have described.

I would appreciate knowing just what your "Maloof Finish" is!

[Scott Holmes]

My opinion is if you add oil to varnish you end up with a soft finish that does not lend itself to "rubbing out"

Chris tends to discount my advice; do this little test and decide for yourself.

Add a little oil to varnish then let it dry on a non-porous surface and after a day or so see if you can rub it out.

Chris as noted we went down this road before... oil/varnsih blends do not produse as HARD a film as varnish by itself. I don't like a soft/rubbery film on woodwork.

[Prashun Patel]

Post some pix.

You say that the finish is cloudy when looking in RAKING LIGHT. What about when looking straight on? One of two things could be going on: 1) The beech is accepting the coloring in the pore filler and the oil preferentially in certain areas. This would result in an unevenly colored - or blotchy surface.

2) The cloudiness happens (at least for me) when I spend too much time wetsanding at the higher grits. The varnish dries quicker (at least it appears this way to me) as the surface gets filled. The fine abrasives make a very light slurry that is hard to see; it almost looks like the oil is just getting a little darker. The finer grit sandpaper loads quickly and moves the slurry around and really mashes it into the grain. This has to be buffed off aggressively and quickly. Otherwise, it will dry making the surface sheen uneven (i.e., streaky or cloudy in parts) and can even keep the surface soft for a long time. I know it feels smooth, but when you use a little more pressure with the pad of your finger, do you leave a fingerprint? If yes, then it has not dried yet. If this is what has happened, then the remedy is straightforward: a rubbing with mineral spirits or a another coat or two of finish. Either will dissolve the slurry so it can this time be completely wiped up.

[Chris Fournier]

My opinion is if you add oil to varnish you end up with a soft finish that does not lend itself to "rubbing out"

Chris tends to discount my advice; do this little test and decide for yourself.

Add a little oil to varnish then let it dry on a non-porous surface and after a day or so see if you can rub it out.

Chris as noted we went down this road before... oil/varnsih blends do not produse as HARD a film as varnish by itself. I don't like a soft/rubbery film on woodwork.

A better test is to add a little oil to varnish, let it dry on a piece of wood, then see if you can rub it out. I have, you can, it does!

I don't like soft/rubbery film on woodwork either. Who would?

[Juan Hovey]

For what they're worth, here are pix of the cabinet top taken inside in my shop and outside, away from direct sunlight. Not sure whether you can see much, unforch.

Am also including pix of the Maloof finish and of a piece of scrap elmwood on which I experimented, rubbing out the Maloof finish as described in an earlier post here. The results on this piece and on two other projects were very pleasing; the grain popped, and the surface was baby-butt smooth.

I followed the same procedure in applying and rubbing out the Maloof finish on the cabinet top, with only middling results.

Chris: This is the Maloof finish sold by Rockler - a mix of BLO, tung oil and poly varnish. It is compatible with the Jasco paste filler I used, as both are oil-based. I used smallish amounts of the finish as a lubricant when wet sanding.

I've read elsewhere that most BLO, possibly including the BLO in this finish, is not pure but laced with additives of one kind or another, and that the purest BLO you can buy is, I think, called "Tried and True."

I may track the stuff down and maybe mix my own finish. Any suggestions as to ingredients and the mix?

Prashun: As you suggested, I left a faint fingerprint, hence went after the surface with mineral spirits. That cleared away some of the cloudiness - a definite improvement. It's OK - meaning not eye-popping, just OK - when looked at straight on, but it remains a bit cloudy when looked at closely, particularly in a raking light.

I'm thinking that I may have committed the error you mention - spending too much time wet sanding with higher grits. This top comes from one of two cabinets, so I can test this on the top of the second cabinet.

I'll post results. Meanwhile, many thanks to all!
Maloof finish.jpgCabinet top3.jpgCabinet top1.jpgElmwood test board.jpgCabinet top2.jpgCabinet top4.jpg

[Brian Kent]

I don't think the directions of the actual name brand Sam Maloof Oil & Varnish mix recommend rubbing out. When I used it I polished between coats with 3M pads, but the final coat was wiped on and wiped and buffed off. Then the Oil & Wax was applied and wiped off. I have no intention to ever rub it out. With waterlox - a totally different story. I waited a month and then fine sanded to about 12,000 grit.

[Prashun Patel]

The pix don't show that well on my screen.

I doubt the BLO is a problem.

Did you try wetsanding with your last grit again? If you don't want to use more finish, you could wetsand with mineral spirits. This will abrade off some of the finish. Go with the grain and buff with a clean cloth.

[Scott Holmes]

Juan,

Maloof's oil/varnish blend is made with poly varnish, which is a bit cloudy compared to non-poly varnishes. It may also have a flatten agent (e.g a satin poly) in it which could also cause cloudiness.

Mix your own oil/varnish blend; typical mix is ~ equal amounts of varnish, mineral spirits, and BLO. Since you want a filled surface I would suggest more varnish than BLO in the mix. Say 50% varnish, 35% MS, 15% BLO

For an even more protective finish use the BLO first; then wipe on a varnish thinned 50-50 with mineral spirits. Now you will have a harder surface to buff or rub out. Test this on scrap, some people don't like the look of BLO on raw wood.

[Chris Fournier]

"I've read elsewhere that most BLO, possibly including the BLO in this finish, is not pure but laced with additives of one kind or another, and that the purest BLO you can buy is, I think, called "Tried and True."" Quote: Juan Hovey

By definition BLO is not pure, it has metal dryers added to it these days which help it dry faster. I have used Tried and True and I wouldn't use it myself any more - expensive and no better than what you can mix up yourself for a fraction of the cost.

Go to the Borg, buy 4L of BLO, some mineral spirits, some Japan Dryer and finally some decent linseed oil based varnish. With these ingredients you are ready to read up on mixing your own oil/varnish or varnish/oil finishes.

Scott's ratios are a good place to start and you can experiement from there.

Oil finishes should be done at 70 degrees F or more and not in high humidity. They need time to dry/cure for the best results. Rush an oil finish and you have a soft rubbery film that looks greasy - oops. Take your time and you'll be best off.

[Howard Acheson]

Which Maloof finish are you using? He uses and markets two finishes.

Both are very heavy in oil and oil/varnish finishes do not rub out to a high sheen. Also, sanding with the papers you are using will not produce a high sheen. To do that, you need to use some sort of polishing compound.

[Prashun Patel]

I followed Juan's previous thread. I don't think he's trying to rub out to a high gloss. I think he just wants to replicate a finish he and I have used successfully before: an in the wood finish, wetsanded with progressively higher grits. Normally he gets good results, but this time was different.

He's using the Step 1 Maloof Mix (not the one with beeswax).

[Juan Hovey]

Prashun: Right. I want a matte finish, not a high gloss, and I am looking to replicate the finish I got on the scrap of elmwood in the photo.

Unforch, it's not going well. Wetsanding with mineral spirits improved things only somewhat; the surface remains blotchy, though less so. As I look closely at the wood, I can see that I did not do as well as I had thought in preparing the unfinished wood, and this may account for the problem at least in part.

Chris: I've ordered some Tried and True but will also experiment with mixing my own. Thanks for the suggestions.

I've have a mind to set this part of the project aside and work on the top to the other cabinet, taking greater care in preparing the surface and maybe foregoing the paste wood filler. I'm determined to get the finish right, one way or another.

Many thanks for your help. I'll post again when I have some news.

[Prashun Patel]

I think you have it. As the wood starts to take on sheen, you will start to notice surface imperfections. The higher the gloss, the better it will highlight flaws.