Is the Klausz-Frid-Scand Bench Dead?

[Robert Engel]

Christopher,

I think it depends on what you do. I can't really think of any advantage of a tail vise over a wagon visel
Main difference is building/installation is much easier. You still have vertical clamping ability, just not as wide.
Of course, an endvise can accomplish the same thing.

One could opt for a double vise or moxon as a substitute for a shoulder vise.

I don't use the vise part of the tail vise as much as I thought I would.

In the end I chose the traditional tail vise because I wanted to stay true the original bench + the challenge.

[William Fretwell]

The Klaus/Frid bench style is my favourite. I hope it's not dead but this thread is 'slow'! I am building one but changed the tail vise design making it twice as long. The 7' 1" bench takes it well. Doubling the tail vise length does several things:

1) It keeps most work in the middle of the bench. Clamping starts nearer the middle and grows with the work.
2) It lets you move the tail vise leg under the vise without compromising clamping; this is BIG because it stops the bench hanging out so far and keeps the leg out of your feet.
3) It moves the tail vise mouth closer to the shoulder vise to hold long boards for edge planning in a more useful way.
4) It reduces tail vise droop, at 13 inches extension droop is 1/8". When you clamp there is no droop.
5) You have more space above the stretchers to add tool storage if required.
6) You loose nothing by doing this and it's not much extra work.
7) It reduces binding of the guide rails to the extent that the second rail is hardly needed but I kept it for the look, but I tested it without.

This modification adds to the Klaus/Frid design and works for a larger bench. I can't help but think most people building a bench forget that a captured tail vise adds nothing to the length of the bench and you loose the massive jaws; both are huge benefits.

Yes the traditional tail vise looks intimidating and does involve real woodwork but break it down and you can build it. Once you have, it makes furniture look simple!

Lots of bench threads and articles start with 'easy', 'simple', 'poor mans', all scream compromise! A place to start but not something to aspire to; a bench that will never have a peer.

People starting out compromise on most things; tools, a bench and space. That is normal but if you aspire to some of the modern benches with restrictive front vise hardware, captive tail vises, twin screw gizmos etc. you are missing out! If you are sure that's all you need then fine but I for one can't predict what I may make down the road. If it's just the 'scary' tail vise putting you off then embrace that fear and build the damn thing. When you do you will look at it and say "that's firkin gorgeous" and it works!

Keeping the Klaus/Frid bench alive and better.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello William,

Glad to hear you're building a Scand bench. Would love to see some pictures, even as WIP. I agree that folks shouldn't hesitate to go Scand with a tail vise.

Best,
Chris

[Glen Canaday]

I'd like pics, too.

I never did see how well that elm worked, Chris. That stuff does not break, how does it hold up to abuse?

[Chris Hachet]

Nice seeing sixths thread come back from the dead...I love that style of workbench....

[Christopher Charles]

Hello Glen,

The elm has worked out great, no issues at all. In fact, I'm working on a couple of tables from the same tree. I'd recommend elm to anyone who can get it for a good price for such an application. I also made a nice side table from some of the bench scrap a while back. An underrated wood, assuming one can get straight grained stock. Will tear out like the devil if not using sharp tools/properly set chip breaker though.

IMG_1634.jpg

[William Fretwell]

Oiled bench.jpg
Hi Chris,
I started putting oil on the top, legs and tool tray not attached yet. Found some black walnut at a good price due to knots & cracks etc. Fine for a work bench. Legs are oak, feet cherry, tool tray cherry. Tail vise faces are 5" square. I used all those odd, unusual lumps of wood I've collected. Each hole has a fitted dog of mahogany with a rounded shoulder so it does not fall through. The holes angle at 2 degrees in the bench body and 3 degrees in the vice just in case there was more play but there is not!
There are three fitted dogs in the back edge of the bench as well for panel/door construction. Apron is 5 inches deep.

[William Fretwell]

Two shots showing the classic construction (but steel thread) of the support/guide rails. The construction is straightforward but precise. The tail vise is about 30 inches long so the rails are longer. The underside of the bench top was only planed where it needed to be to keep as much wood as possible.
Bench Tail Vise Under.jpg Tail vise under 2.jpg

[William Fretwell]

To add a little:

There's a reason for multiple dog holes in more recent cabinetmaker bench tail vises. There is, or should, be differential spacing of the dog holes between the bench and vise. The dog holes in my bench are 5" apart and the dogs in the vise are about 6 5/8" apart. This means I never have to move the vise much more than about 1 5/8" when changing lengths of cabinet stock no matter what the length as long as it'll fit between the dogs. It's always less than 8 turns of the vise screw. I suspect a lot of people aren't aware of this or have worked on some of the new mass produced benches that have the same dog spacing in the vise or bench top. I often use the vise faces of the tail vise for all kinds of things and I've struggled with round bench dogs too many times to like them.

I find this misleading. The real reason for multiple dog holes in the tail vise is to keep as much vise under the work as possible; not so you can have differential spacing. You want the wood supported as solidly as possible so you keep it over the bench dog holes as much as possible. This means the first dog hole in the end vise gets the lions share of the work.
If you do the maths, differential spacing increases turns at the longer end of the bench range. With 5 inch dog spacing in the bench and 4 & 7/8" spacing in the tail vise I average at most 12 turns to clamp because you leave the vise where it was; which is typically open half a dog hole width and you don't have to change two dogs! Building furniture, you plane say 4 sides of four legs with 1 turn of movement. In this example extra turns occur after 16 operations of the tail vise, not so terrible!

Your differential spacing gives you fewer dog holes in the vise, in a manufactured bench this would look like they were cutting costs to a customer.

Regular spacing based on maintaining structural integrity between holes (3.5" of wood in my bench) gives you as many holes as possible to keep the work piece off the vise. It minimises turns at the long end of the bench range when the work encroaches on the vise. I considered differential spacing for my bench but rejected it based on the above.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello all,

After a couple of years using the BC roller design, I decided to upgrade the leg vise. I went back and forth between a criss-cross and Anchora Yatch Designs chain vise. I decided on the chain vise b/c I didn't want to make a new vise chop. When retrofitting the BC roller design (as spec'ed in the original split-top BC bench), a new chop needs to be built because the criss cross requires a longer chop extending to near the floor. And the $s were about the same.

I must say the chain vise is a clever design and well-executed package. I went with the 'middle' package that included one set of angle brackets for the lower roller. The upper roller was mortised into the bench after a hole was bored for the chain. Rather than take my bench apart, I used a guide block and auger to bore the hole and did the mortising by hand from under the bench. In retrospect, the latter would have been a bit easier if I'd taken the trouble to at least tip the bench onto it's front face.

I've been using the vise a bit since January and am very impressed as it is a marked improvement over the traditional vise with roller (which were fiddly). My thanks to Jim for his efforts and a clever design, and for Derek for posting his experience and review.

Best,
C

IMG_0975.jpgIMG_0976.jpgIMG_0978.jpgIMG_0990.jpgIMG_0991.jpg

[Jim Ritter]

Your welcome Christopher. Nice use of the guide block for drilling the hole square.
Jim

[Graham Haydon]

Hand wheel is pretty special. Great work.

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks Graham, I've been very pleased with it. And the chain vise continues to work flawlessly.

Best,
Chris

[Robert Engel]

Something I would do differently is the spacing of the dog holes in the tail vise. I followed Klauzs' recommended spacing and I've found some degree of aggravation in that.

Maybe about 2/3 the distance apart as the bench holes would reduce cranking. I'm contemplating boring a couple holes for some pop up dogs.

Of course you could opt for the quick release screw.

[William Fretwell]

Attachment 203053Here's what the folks at a Canadian Bed & Breakfast hotel did with their workbench. Not meant to be inflammatory. For years my only bench was a small model Sjoberg. It was wholly useless in the shop so my wife and I used it as a portable bar when we had parties. I'd park a Stanley #5 on top to provoke conversation. Never could make a darned thing on that bench.

Yes I stayed there for my sons graduation! I took photos of the underneath of the tail vise out of interest. It was easier then as it was turned around the other way and off the wall.