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Thread: Administrative WARNING about Rant Threads

  1. #16
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    Bill......you certainly haven't offended me.

    You can certainly disagree with Moderators or Administrators here as long as it's civil.
    Ken

    So much to learn, so little time.....

  2. #17
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    I am curious as to what the moderators recommend forum members do when they have a repeatedly bad experience with a company, have made multiple attempts to properly work through the situation and have not been able to come to an agreeable resolution. I do think it is certainly ok and within reason for mods to ask that such threads not be posted anywhere on this forum, but I think it is important to decipher if this is or is not the stance of SMC.

  3. #18
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    Bill,

    No offense taken and thanks for your contribution to this thread.

    It is my understanding that forum owners are carriers similar to the phone company in that they are not responsible for content that is provided by a Member. We must remove any illegal public content when we are made aware of a problem by a proper authority.

    Our Terms of Service (TOS) clearly state the intent of our service and provide the necessary instructions that all members of this Community agree to when they register.

    Moderators are not subject to any legal challenge based on their duties here, they are not employees and they are not paid for their service hence they are not allowed to make or enforce any policy that would constitute a legal responsibility on their part.
    .

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Scoma View Post
    I am curious as to what the moderators recommend forum members do when they have a repeatedly bad experience with a company, have made multiple attempts to properly work through the situation and have not been able to come to an agreeable resolution. I do think it is certainly ok and within reason for mods to ask that such threads not be posted anywhere on this forum, but I think it is important to decipher if this is or is not the stance of SMC.
    Peter,

    Don't Rant!
    You can certainly discuss these types of situations in a responsible manner providing the factual details without mud slinging or making inaccurate accusations against an individual of company. We require that you make an attempt to resolve any conflicts directly with the company involved before you make any public statement here. The reason for this requirement is that it is the courteous thing to do and it follows this Communities standing order of being a friendly environment. Everyone here is expected to be friendly and courteous all the time, to be less than that in regards to a commercial vendor is the same as being disrespectful towards a member of this Community.

    People need to also think about their expectations for creating a new thread, if their goal is to harm anyone in any way that just doesn't fit who we are and what this Community is about. These are not rules created by Administrators here it is what the majority of this Community prefers. Finally we are definitely not like any other woodworking forum, I admit that right up front and it is by design. I really dislike being compared to other online communities and to hear someone challenge the way we function based on a situation that might be tolerated elsewhere. If you spend five minutes here reading in any of our forums you should get the idea that something is different about this place.

    I don't mean to pick on you directly Peter I am just trying to answer your question so don't take my response personally.
    .
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 08-04-2011 at 6:50 AM.

  5. #20
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    The unfortunate aspect of this is that one will no longer be able to believe tool reviews. I understand why it has to be this way, and I do see some people getting carried away with their venom, but that is just human nature.

    The lawyers win again.......

    Larry

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Outten View Post
    Don't Rant!
    You can certainly discuss these types of situations in a responsible manner providing the factual details without mud slinging or making inaccurate accusations against an individual of company. We require that you make an attempt to resolve any conflicts directly with the company involved before you make any public statement here.
    This raises an interesting conundrum, one which I have struggled to find a meaningful halfway to...

    If a person is required to resolve any conflict with the company first before posting here, there's no point in posting here at all to ask for help/suggestions... it either gets resolved or it doesn't, but the forum is not allowed to hear about it until it's over. On the other hand, once that person reaches a point where the conflict is obviously not going to be resolved to their satisfaction, they also can't post because anything they say may disparage the company's products and/or service. It's a no-win situation.

    Should they post in a coherent, thoughtful manner about their issues with the company, the first thing everyone wants to know are the details behind what happened. Without those details, we cannot make up our own minds as to who was at fault (and both parties may be). So the details are asked for, and if they are supplied, we're back over the line again... thread gets removed from public consumption (one thing I have never agreed with, locking would be better, IMO).

    Catch-22...
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  7. #22
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    Larry, I doubt that the lawyers will win anything in this case because the issue is about how this Community feels things should be done. We are simply extending our Community philosophy of being a friendly place to the companies we purchase tools and equipment from. If this solves a few legal issues for us that is certainly a major benefit as well. In a nutshell we don't want SawMill Creek to be used as a courtroom that tries and convicts anyone (person or business), particulalrly when they are not present to defend their position.

    Dan, you have misinterpreted what I said in my last post.
    Please read it again.
    .
    Last edited by Keith Outten; 08-04-2011 at 7:40 AM.

  8. #23
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    I think this thread has been successful in clarifying SMC's stance on negative reviews, however, I'm still stuck on what is a "rant/pile on" vs "poor review."

    If the original poster in a thread reports an unsatisfactory experience with a product/CS they are oftentimes not alone in their experience. Perhaps this post is followed by half a dozen members reporting a similar experience in accordance with forum rules. If such a thread is no longer allowed it is a true shame. I rely quite a bit on tool reviews and various forums to make decisions on what to purchase. I think most members are savvy enough to know which threads are legitimate and which are BS nonsense.
    PJS

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Edgerton View Post
    The unfortunate aspect of this is that one will no longer be able to believe tool reviews. I understand why it has to be this way, and I do see some people getting carried away with their venom, but that is just human nature.

    The lawyers win again.......

    Larry
    I agree with that statement Larry.

    Keith when you say post like the grizzly thread are completely removed from the public view to protect the company the member and forum’s reputation. I just do not understand the majority wanting this type of censorship. Maybe that explains why this forum has so many new tool gloats and very few this new tool stinks threads.
    Its actions like that that can hurt a forum or any other company that someone puts trust in for neutral reviews. The BBB even got a big public black-eye by how it was selling its ratings. 20/20 aired a show showing exactly that. now if you knew that you could buy an A+ rating from the BBB would you still trust them when trying to evaluate a company you may be looking to hire? How is this any different than what the BBB is doing? they remove consumer complaints for their paying accredited members or in the case here sponsors. The ability to complain about a company’s service or product in a public place or place product reviews without fear that they will be deleted because the company or someone disagrees with that review. This is what keeps companies doing the right thing and fixing issues. where would we be if all companies could sweep all issues under the rug from the public view with a few advertising dollars.

    I know I would have liked to know that the BBB was doing that. it would have saved me $6k that a contractor ripped me off for that had an A+ rating and no government actions in their report. After the fact found out the opposite, the city had issued summons to the contractor for hiring unlicensed sub-contractors and had a few lawsuits filed in other counties. Even when I filed a complaint with them against the contractor, still no complaints show when you look up that company still has an A+ and no government actions taken against the company even though I provided the public records, the only thing it takes to get a positive listing is a valid credit card.


    That is why I suggested that deleting full threads is not always best. if a thread starts to become a rant you weed the abusive post and notify the member why. but do not kill the legitimate post in that thread. becase when you loose the public trust because they are seeing these threads get deleted you loose members, and when you loose members then the advertisers do not care, they will take their $$ and move on

    I personally rely on forms and reviews of products by consumers a lot more than shows or magazines that depend on advertisers for their income. Its these forums and review sites that keep companies in check. if these forums did not exist these companies would not be so willing to fix issues if they were not worried about this type of thread.

    At the end of the thread its up to you on how you deal with these issues, just like every other business with the choices they make, they have to accept how those choices reflect on that business.
    Last edited by Bill Trouard; 08-04-2011 at 9:17 AM.

  10. #25
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    Just my $.02...

    I , for one, appreciate the balance here. It is indeed a valuable resource of information. It is also a place where we can share our likes and even our exuberance over our experiences/purchases from and with tool makers and sellers.

    That info (IMHO) is oh so very appreciated.

    I know the issue being discussed here is a delicate one. But I think that the administration here handles it well. I personally tire of reading threads of folks bashing companies or even using the forum as a "means to an end" for getting the business' attention.

    Do we (as individual consumers) have bad experiences? Sure. But there is a way for us to voice our concerns in an appropriate manner.

    It's kind of like this...I can disagree with my wife. Hey, it happens (more often than I care to mention here). I am learning (after 31 years of marriage) that the way I choose to handle that disagreement can either resolve or exacerbate the issue. We can discuss it rationally...or I can "freak out" on her.

    Speaking of which...

    Have you ever been to someone's house and heard a couple get into a heated "disagreement"? I have. It's awkward.

    Well, it can get like that around here sometimes. Except we get to here only one side of the complaints.

    I think the mods do a good job keeping that in check.

    (Enough of my ramblings...)
    I am never wrong.

    Well...I thought I was wrong once...but I was mistaken.

  11. #26
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    Keith - Maybe there should be another survey about corporate sponsorship versus an annual fee. I for one would be willing to pay to speak/read freely. Another option may be to have a forum section for ranting - some other forums have this (maybe charge an additional fee for this section).


    Mike

  12. #27
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    Nobody is saying that you cannot write a responsible review (good or bad) of a tool here. In fact if you search our archives you will find that I have been extremely critical of Xenetech many times. I chose my words very carefully and I stuck to the facts when I made comments about their company and a machine we purchased at CNU. Everything I said was true and I can provide proof if necessary to substantiate every comment I made.

    Mike, we have a private Forum called the Lumber Yard where you can speak freely. Our Moderators rarely get involved in any of the posts in the Lumber Yard unless someone becomes unfriendly. You already have access to this Forum as a Contributor.

    I don't need to open a poll to ask how everyone here feels about The Creek reverting back to a user supported Community again when so few are willing to donate six dollars per year. The vote would once again be an overwhelming approval of advertising providing free access to all of our woodworking forums.
    .

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Edgerton View Post
    The unfortunate aspect of this is that one will no longer be able to believe tool reviews.
    Do you mean reviews by we, the users and members of these forums, reviews in printed media, or on tool based websites?
    The first, I would have a tendency to believe. The other two, I hardly ever believe, totally.
    Never, under any circumstances, consume a laxative and sleeping pill, on the same night

  14. #29
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    I will chime in here, to say that I appreciate the balance that the moderators/admins are able to maintain on this forum. I find it to be one of the more friendly and useful sites on the internet (at least for the ones I have used).

    I have seen and tried to use sites that are very open and loosely moderated (or self moderated). These almost inevitably end up being taken over by a vocal minority, which most times renders the site useless.

    There has to be a balance. The chances of everyone agreeing to what the details of the balance looks like - is zero. Im a big believer that someone has to step up and make these decisions, and I am comfortable that the current moderators/admins make thoughtful and considerate judgment on where to draw the line.

    I also appreciate that it takes time and effort on their part to make this site what it is - a very valuable and useful forum for sharing of information on a common theme. I have certainly made decisions based on 'poor reviews' of a product by others here. I have also seen people become upset over things that I would not at all consider to warrant the level of passion shown. From what I have seen, its all about HOW the feelings are expressed and shared. I have yet to see a topic where legitimate opinions, expressed in a mature and 'fair' way, were moderated off. Is it 'perfect'? - there is no perfect.

    So my rant: I want to express my thanks to the moderators and administration of this site. It continues to be a valuable forum of information (for me). As far as I am concerned, you are doing a great job in balancing the tone of the site and ensuring it stays a positive and fair environment.

  15. #30
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    I've just noticed this thread, and post as the devil's advocate. I should mention that being in ireland and dealing only occasionally with US suppliers the topic is in my case largely academic in any local or specific sense - although it's absolutely relevant in terms of the broad situation and the thrust of the points made. To be clear - my feeling is that there is no place for posts which which are gratuitously abusive, or which are intentionally untrue. It's clear too that the practical bottom line for any forum must be to act in accordance with the realpolitik of the situation - that it would otherwise risk ending up more focused on surviving in the courts than on providing any woodworking related service.

    Truth be told though this outcome reflects the balance of power our societies have enabled between the players (primarily forum owners, advertisers/suppliers, posters, purchasers, and the the law) more than it does any fundamentally wise or just balancing of outcomes. The private Joe is always going to lose if a decent sized distributor (a player with financial clout) chooses to take a tilt at him for publicising an issue in circumstances where he can't show that the fault lies clearly, simply and demonstrably with the distributor - while a forum or magazine is going to find it commercially very difficult to stand up to the power wielded by a large advertiser. The other major variable that moderates behaviours is probably the fear of negative publicity.

    Most of us by knowing this, by not being legal experts or masters of the weasel word, and by having minimal financial resources and even less time to spare to tilt at legal and cultural windmills tend to keep our heads down. We do our homework and try to stay out of trouble, and if we run into trouble we'll get an issue sorted by the path of least resistance if we reasonably can. We'll very often though heave a sigh of the 'I should have known better' sort, take the hit and move on - or may even have become so used to endemic overselling that we don't fully perceive it as an issue. Our culture is such that it's often not even an option to raise an issue on a forum for fear of being told 'serves you right dope, you should have read the fine print' or something similar.

    What I guess I'm saying is that there's likely a far higher level of dissatisfaction with suppliers out there than the level of complaint on any forum I've seen suggests to be the case, and that the realpolitik described above contributes to masking this fact. That forums (presumably) for fear of legal entanglements and loss of sponsors almost inevitably hope to silence dissent - regardless of whether or not the issue has merit.

    I've been horrified at the level of dubious business practice I've encountered since getting into woodworking in the late 90s - practices are rampant that in engineering and manufacturing industry are almost unheard of. The difference I suspect is that in industry the client normally has the clout to avail of the law - while the primarily DIY/hobby guy does not, and may not even be protected by the same law e.g. as in the case of dust system performance standards.

    My personal and not very expert sense is that the law is the big culprit in this situation - that as ever it creates distortions that favour those with power and financial clout that adhere to its letter but not its spirit.

    There are many excellent woodworking suppliers out there (and we can all name some) - from the large to the very small - organisations and individuals that offer great products made to the highest quality standards, excellent service, and operate to the highest standards of integrity. People that do the right thing for the right reasons.

    The fact is though that there's a sizeable swathe of unscrupulous operators out there too that routinely make advertising and marketing claims about their product and its quality and performance that don't stand up in practice, and that will roll out the law or other weapons (including those deriving from their commercial clout) to block dissent and/or honest commentary if the going is getting tough. The fact is that many of these guys knowingly and intentionally exploit the gaps created by the realpolitik to stay out of trouble.

    While fair play is probably always going to demand moderation on the part of all the players (even if legally possible it seems likely that free for all attacks on suppliers would lead to injustices - although perhaps matters would find there own equilibrium as people came to recognise what was excessive, and what was not) - it seems to me that it's a pity that the law as it stands makes it tough for a forum to truly function as a soapbox for the raising of issues...

    ian
    Last edited by ian maybury; 09-30-2011 at 6:05 AM. Reason: typos

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