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Thread: Advice on potential table saw buy -- Delta Model 10

  1. #31
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    John,
    I can't log into your g-mail so I can't see the pictures.
    Cary

  2. #32
    Whoops -- I guess I was using the gmail view vs. download option! Try these:

    - http://i.imgur.com/tB6Yz.jpg
    - http://i.imgur.com/47hqq.jpg
    - http://i.imgur.com/kBLPv.jpg

  3. #33
    I have a Delta Model 10. Years ago I noticed that the front bar was curved and the fence's relationship to the blade varied as you moved it. It turned out that the mounting hardware needed custom fitting, else the bar was deflected once was mounted. This detail alone was responsible for a lot of error and frustration in using the saw. The fix for the curved bar is to check the bar with a good straight edge when it is unbolted from the saw frame. If it is straight, then you need to file each of the mounting offset hardware, or use shims to adjust them so that bolting the bar in place does not bend the bar. If you use shims, it should be pretty easy to straighten the bar also if there is a slight deflection. You can use washers or make your own shims by cutting sheet metal (I've used aluminum soda cans as a convenient source of thin metal, they are easily cut with a pair of scissors). I eventually replaced the fence with a Unifence, as well as other upgrades. The saw can be made to be very usable if you put in the effort.

  4. #34
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    "I guess I don't really know what I want. I just would like a saw that is true and 'trueable.' "
    -- John H.

    I think this is part of your problem. The other problem is that from reading your posts, I feel that you appear to be in a hurry to buy a TS.

    Do some on-line research into the various types of table saws: contractor vs. cabinet saw vs. hybrid. And learn the differences and features.
    For ‘zample’:
    http://www.toolcrib.com/blog/2007/10/a-table-saw-buying-guide-benchtop-vs-contractor-vs-cabinet-vs-hybrid

    http://www.rockler.com/articles/table-saw.cfm

    http://woodcentral.com/bparticles/con_vs_table.shtml

    http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=1492&articleID=501503

    You said that “I'm fine with continuing to wait.”

    That you should do and save up more funds to purchase a better saw. Otherwise, I feel that in your seemingly haste to buy a saw, you may buy something that will not meet your needs or has problems.

    As C. Courtney posted:
    “If I were you and if money is an object, then I would wait till I see a good used Unisaw saw in your area and have at lease 500 in my pocket.Over the last couple of yrs I have purchase two unisaws for 200 ea. which did need some work.Be patience,wait,keep an eye open and there better be pics----Carroll “

    About 1980, my first table saw was the now-defunct Delta 34-444 contractor’s saw. While it was a good machine, like most saws of this nature, it did have its quirks:
    -- Needed to keep an eye on the bevel cuts and blade to miter gauge parallelism Time consuming and frustrating adjustments to correct.
    -- It had the Jet Lock fence, which I found not to be a problem. But then again, I did not use ‘gorilla force’ when adjusting the fence settings . Also needed to be careful when cutting sheet goods so as not to bang the edge against the fence. It also had an easy-to-move mobile base that did not require much effort to move the saw about.

    In 1986 or ‘87, I bought a Uni-saw and have not looked back. I only have adjusted the parallelism for the blade to miter gauge slots once -- that was after an inter-state move. Saw with the 90 and 45 degree blade stops: set 'em once and forget about it. It ‘sports’ the older style Uni-fence which is very easy to adjust and like the saw itself, holds its settings very well.

    Again, see what C. Courtney wrote.
    Last edited by Ray Newman; 08-15-2011 at 2:43 PM.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Newman View Post
    The other problem is that from reading your posts, I feel that you appear to be in a hurry to buy a TS.
    I can see how it might appear like that. I think I'm torn. I'd love to have one and get rid of this pile of frustration I have... but on the other hand, would not be able to pull the trigger for both financial reasons (the money may be there, but there's always females involved that need convincing) and because I'm insanely anal about [most] purchases. My current table saw was bought in a hurry for the job I needed done *that day.* Stupid.

    My router, on the other hand, I researched for months and bought new and have been ridiculously happy with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Newman View Post
    Do some on-line research into the various types of table saws: contractor vs. cabinet saw vs. hybrid. And learn the differences and features. For "zample"...
    Thanks for that. Some questions:

    - The first link suggests that a hobbyist (which I am) and beginner (which I am) should be fine with a contractor. A lot here seem to recommend a cabinet saw, despite me mentioning I'm primarily a hobbyist. What are thoughts on that? In reading that first link, I'm all for "beefier." I'm a mechanical engineer and think I know enough to care. Robust designs, well planed mechanisms, etc.... I'm all for it. I have suffered the results of both poor-to-mediocre materials and design itself already and would prefer not to repeat that.

    - I'm quasi-space limited. Does that honking table come off or lower on cabinet saws? I couldn't keep something like that in my garage. I built my own mobile base for my current saw just so I could get it out of the way and clean up the saw dust without having to drag the thing.

    - For hobby work, how big of a deal is the "beefier" nature of the cabinet saw innards? I love your statement that you set it once and it's never moved. Again, I'm all for that. I wouldn't mind a yearly checkup or something each spring (don't do much wood working in the winter), but if contractor saws come out of alignment from weekly use... that's a real bummer.

    Lastly, there seems to be some misinformation between the sites about hybrid saws. For example:

    - The Rockler article:
    Hybrid saws are equipped with more substantial trunnions and arbor bearings, often a more advanced drive belt system, and better gearing than most contractor saws. In addition, the trunnions of many hybrid saws are mounted to the base of the saw, making precision alignment of the blade with the miter slot and the blade much easier.
    - The ToolsOfTheTrade article:
    ...the true distinction is based on the trunnion design. Hybrid saws use contractor saw trunnion assemblies, which are built lighter and typically hang mounted from the bottom of the table versus the beefier cabinet saw trunnion assemblies, which are supported by the top of the cabinet itself. It's true that all of the motors have moved inboard, but the Craftsman and Steel City designs are the only to use cabinet support with a contractor-style trunnion...
    So... do hybrids have beefy trunnions or contractor style trunnions? One says they are mostly mounted to the base, the other says that only two of the ones tested are mounted to the base. Odd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Newman View Post
    You said that "I'm fine with continuing to wait." That you should do and save up more funds to purchase a better saw. Otherwise, I feel that in your seemingly haste to buy a saw, you may buy something that will not meet your needs or has problems.
    I'm all for this... but at what point does one draw the line and decide, "I'm a hobbyist and almost surely always will be and no matter how awesome a cabinet saw is, I just don't wish to drop $5-700 on one?" Again, isn't there some compromise such that a recommended contractor model that is known for being above average in robustness or design could fill the needs of an average woodworker? Just trying to play devil's advocate here. I love fine things and were I single would have no problem dropping $5-800 by any means. I own a guitar approaching the $2k mark because I care enough about it and love the fact that another human built it himself. Just want to see all perspectives on this.

    If the final answer is just that everyone who cares about accuracy should really shoot for a used cabinet saw... then so be it and I'll start my Craigslist hunt. So far I've seen nothing below $800-1800 in my area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Newman View Post
    As C. Courtney posted:
    "If I were you and if money is an object, then I would wait till I see a good used Unisaw saw in your area and have at lease 500 in my pocket.Over the last couple of yrs I have purchase two unisaws for 200 ea. which did need some work.Be patience,wait,keep an eye open and there better be pics----Carroll"
    Keep $200 or $500 in my pocket? That's a big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Newman View Post
    About 1980, my first table saw was the now-defunct Delta 34-444 contractor's saw. While it was a good machine, like most saws of this nature, it did have its quirks:
    -- Needed to keep an eye on the bevel cuts and blade to miter gauge parallelism Time consuming and frustrating adjustments to correct.
    -- It had the Jet Lock fence, which I found not to be a problem. But then again, I did not use �gorilla force� when adjusting the fence settings . Also needed to be careful when cutting sheet goods so as not to bang the edge against the fence. It also had an easy-to-move mobile base that did not require much effort to move the saw about.

    In 1986 or '87, I bought a Uni-saw and have not looked back. I only have adjusted the parallelism for the blade to miter gauge slots once -- that was after an inter-state move. Saw with the 90 and 45 degree blade stops: set 'em once and forget about it. It "sports" the older style Uni-fence which is very easy to adjust and like the saw itself, holds its settings very well.
    That's helpful to know. When you say "keep an eye on..." and "time consuming and frustrating adjustments to correct...":
    - How often did you have to do this?
    - How much time/frustration are we talking about? A morning? An entire weekend of tweaking?
    - Don't most of the people on this forum (simply based on averages and price) probably have contractor type saws? How do they fare?

    So, from my reading of your links, it would seem that a hybrid sounds quite appealing, but I'm pretty sure someone in this thread already steered me away from them, saying that they weren't really worth and that one might as well get a cabinet. Thoughts on that?

    Thanks for the thorough response and information.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by John W Henderson View Post
    ...I now know I'll keep my eye out for Ridgids and some seem to like their Craftsmans, but they seem so touchy (love/hate and not much in between) that I think I'm going to pass since I have no knowledge about them....John
    John - Emerson made the Craftsman contractor saws for years up until ~ 1997, at which time Emerson and Sears parted ways. Sears then contracted with TTI/Ryobi to make essentially the same saw for them overseas, which they did until ~ 2004. Also in 1997, Emerson had a bunch of capacity, so they introduced the Ridgid TS2412 contractor saw, which was pretty much the same saw they were making for Sear...subsequent models included the TS2424 and TS3612. In 2004, Emerson contracted with TTI/Ryobi to make their Ridgid contractor saw, and the TS3650 was introduced, then became the TS3660. As you can see these saws all share some ancestry and have a great deal in common...enough so that many of the parts are interchangeable. What changes most are the things that get bolted to the main saw...fence, wings, etc. The Emerson made Cman saws have a prefix of 113.###### and the Ryobi made saws have a prefix of 315.######. If the deal is right and the saw is nice, I wouldn't give up on any of them because of the name.

    Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

  7. John,

    I appreciate your anxiety over buying a table saw. I went through the same thing three years ago. I am a home woodworking (ready hobbiest) and I had been using a craftsman like some you showed in your Craigslist images. It was frustrating to deal with at the least. Here are the frustrations I experienced

    1) The fence wouldn't stay in place. Often, I would clamp the fence down. Ordering parts from Sears was fairly easy, but more expensive than I thought they should be.

    2) The stamped steel legs often bent. I had replaced two before I welded some angle iron to hold them in place.

    3) It was underpowered. It is an old, well known joke about what HP Sears promised on those saws. The 3 HP reading was max output without load. It really ran about 1 to 1.5 horsepower and occasionally stopped on me.

    I finally decided enough was enough and spent four months looking for a new saw. I wanted a cabinet saw and was willing to put a little work into it. I almost bought a 1939 unisaw for $300, but after giving the jerk a deposit, he called to tell me he had another offer for $500. I gladly took my deposit back and told him what I thought of him!

    Anyway, I finally found a Shop Fox cabinet. I bought it because it was in like new condition, and came with a lot of additional goodies. I spend $800.00. Not a great deal, but I am happy every time I use it. I would suggest the following:

    1) Be patient. You will find the right deal out there
    2) Put a little away. I know $500 seems like a lot, but you are over half way there, and you will have a new world of options at that pricepoint.
    3) You have done your research. It seems as thought you are looking for approval on your purchase. In my opinion, no one can tell you what is best. You have to ask yourself, how much work do you plan on doing? If you are willing to take on a full resto, you can buy a uni with your $300, but you will put another $200 into it (at least) How often do you use it? If you are frustrated with a saw, the more you use, the worse it will be. You said you are a mechanical engineer, so that should be a positive. Take your time, know what is out there, and what the value SHOULD be. That is the only way you will know you are getting a good deal. Check CL at least...AT LEAST three or four times a day. You need to be ready to buy as soon as you find the deal. Frankly, I think you should be looking for a used cabinet that will need a little work, almost any brand will do. You may find that you really enjoy the restoration process, and you will get to really know your saw. That being said, it takes time and effort to clean/fix/tune up that saw. I know it will be worth it.

    Keep looking, learn the values of what's out there are be ready to jump when the deal appears...

    Good luck.

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwain Lambrigger View Post
    I appreciate your anxiety over buying a table saw. I went through the same thing three years ago. I am a home woodworking (ready hobbiest) and I had been using a craftsman like some you showed in your Craigslist images. It was frustrating to deal with at the least. Here are the frustrations I experienced
    Ha! You definitely "get" me in terms of where I'm coming from. Purchasing anxiety is definitely the way to describe it. I did the same thing with my router... but I think I made a better purchase for it. Ended up with a Milwaukee 5615 and it has been awesome. I think "anxiety" can be well placed and has served to keep me honest since I know if I don't research my options I'll not have done my due diligence and end up wondering if there was a better bang for the buck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwain Lambrigger View Post
    I finally decided enough was enough and spent four months looking for a new saw. I wanted a cabinet saw and was willing to put a little work into it. I almost bought a 1939 unisaw for $300, but after giving the jerk a deposit, he called to tell me he had another offer for $500. I gladly took my deposit back and told him what I thought of him!
    That's a deal I'd take for sure. What a crummy situation, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwain Lambrigger View Post
    1) Be patient. You will find the right deal out there
    2) Put a little away. I know $500 seems like a lot, but you are over half way there, and you will have a new world of options at that pricepoint.
    That's a good point. And it's a lifetime investment (I hope). In mentioning this to my wife, she acknowledges that I have really put mine to use and have been making things. I got into inlaying and have begun getting commission requests from friends and could definitely pay this thing back with a little effort. I have really loved woodworking and have only been doing it for about 6mos. I made my wife a frame with the saw I have now along with some cribbage boards. Some examples:

    Frame for the wife last Christmas:
    - http://i.imgur.com/VAHGv.jpg
    - http://i.imgur.com/QM93Z.jpg

    A commissioned cribbage board in progress:
    - http://i.imgur.com/yxsTB.jpg
    - http://i.imgur.com/J5RnN.jpg

    One for my brother-in-law:
    - http://i.imgur.com/38U9y.jpg

    If I sold enough of these, I could eventually recoup some of my costs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwain Lambrigger View Post
    3) You have done your research. It seems as thought you are looking for approval on your purchase. In my opinion, no one can tell you what is best. You have to ask yourself, how much work do you plan on doing?
    Yes, there is an approval aspect of it. Some is probably misplaced; the rest of it is honestly wondering what people who know better would recommend. I will admit that even on this thread, though, it seems that many do know better than me, but disagree with each other (whether a contractor is good enough, how much one is worth, etc.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwain Lambrigger View Post
    If you are willing to take on a full resto, you can buy a uni with your $300, but you will put another $200 into it (at least) How often do you use it? If you are frustrated with a saw, the more you use, the worse it will be. You said you are a mechanical engineer, so that should be a positive. Take your time, know what is out there, and what the value SHOULD be. That is the only way you will know you are getting a good deal. Check CL at least...AT LEAST three or four times a day. You need to be ready to buy as soon as you find the deal. Frankly, I think you should be looking for a used cabinet that will need a little work, almost any brand will do. You may find that you really enjoy the restoration process, and you will get to really know your saw. That being said, it takes time and effort to clean/fix/tune up that saw. I know it will be worth it.
    I think this makes a lot of sense. I'd definitely be up for a restoration. That's pretty much what I did with my 34-335. Took the whole thing apart, cleaned and lubed everything. Put it back together. Sanded the hell out of the top. Cleaned out the motor housing, etc. It was pure joy when that tilt mechanism worked again. But... it definitely had more rust in critical areas that I would have wanted. And like I've been saying, I have come to realize the limitations based purely on the design that no longer have to do with how well I set something or tweak it or how many parts I replace. Not to mention it was such an uncommon design that there aren't even parts for most critical things anymore. Hell, ereplacementparts is selling the fence assembly, as absolutely horrible as it is for $405!! It's just that rare. I emailed ereplacementparts to see if they ever buy old parts. I'd happily restock the parts they're out of stock on for 1/4 of their selling price

    Alright, I think you guys have convinced me. I'll try to lay low and just wait. I think I'll rebuild my own saw once more and try to get rid of it for what I paid for it. I'd still appreciate input on whether or not a contractor style is ever satisfying in the long run for someone. It sounds like they're all pretty much the same but just have better/worse fences and wings. Is that accurate? In other words, are there any contractor saws known for having beefier components... or are they all lighter-ish. Finally, what do others think of hybrids?

  9. #39
    If this one is a ts3650 or ts3660 I would offer up to $300. Start by asking if he will consider $250. There are a few contractor saw that are known to be good saws. But it is not brand specific but model specific. Those two Ridgids are examples. Others can let you know about the other brands models. I know jet has at least one. I just don't know the model #s.

    http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/an...543583556.html

    "and because I'm insanely anal about [most] purchases. My current table saw was bought in a hurry for the job I needed done *that day.* Stupid."

    The above quote tells me that you need at least one of the "cream of the crop" contractor saws or better(hybrid or cabinet). Keep posting the listing here and those who know the models will be able to guide you. Scott Spencer is one person on this forum that has somewhat of a table saw fetish. If he gives his blessing on a saw I would follow his advise. I am sure there are others here that are as knowledgeable but I am just familiar with Scott as he makes an appearance in many of the table saw and table saw blade threads.

    James

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by James White View Post
    If this one is a ts3650 or ts3660 I would offer up to $300. Start by asking if he will consider $250. There are a few contractor saw that are known to be good saws. But it is not brand specific but model specific. Those two Ridgids are examples. Others can let you know about the other brands models. I know jet has at least one. I just don't know the model #s.
    Thanks, James. I just emailed them a bit ago requesting the model, actually!


    "and because I'm insanely anal about [most] purchases. My current table saw was bought in a hurry for the job I needed done *that day.* Stupid."

    Quote Originally Posted by James White View Post
    The above quote tells me that you need at least one of the "cream of the crop" contractor saws or better(hybrid or cabinet).
    Shoot -- what a curse it is to be anal retentive...

    Quote Originally Posted by James White View Post
    Keep posting the listing here and those who know the models will be able to guide you.
    Will do, and I appreciate everyone's support!

  11. #41
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    as an owner of both an emerson built c-man 10" contractor saw and an emerson built ridgid 2412, i'd say you couldn't go wrong with either of the 2 ridgids pictured above by scott spencer. judging from the samples of your work you've posted, the two ridgid's would be enough saw to last you a long, long time (apologies here to the "ya gotta have a unisaw "old arn" table saw or ya just cain't get anything done" crowd). with the proper blade, my lowly 2412 has yet to meet something it can't handle. the only reservation i would have regarding the middle c-man is that the fence seems to be a little less robust than the two ridgids. one small benefit to the ridgids regarding rip capacity is that you can pick up 6 to 12" more right side rip capacity just by loosening the bolts that hold the rails to the table and slide the rails to the right. this negates the usefullness of the fence's ruler, but that seems to be a small price to pay for the increased functionality of greater rip capacity. $150-250, max $300, should get you a saw that'll serve you well for many years. (BTW, the 3650/60 pictured above is missing the support rod that keeps the front and rear rails from bending inward when the fence is engaged to the right of the right side extension wing).
    Last edited by Joseph Tarantino; 08-15-2011 at 9:57 PM.

  12. #42

    Grizzly Saw

    John,

    Noticed you posted about the grizzly 1022 and wanted to give you my take on it. Mine was my grandfathers before he passed away. Since putting it in my basement, i replaced the fence (jet-lock, i believe) with a biese clone that i'm sure i overpaid for, but it made a world of difference. I don't tilt the blade often, but haven't had any issues with it being out of alignment when i get back to 90.

    I'm a hobbyist and mech eng like you, and this saw more than meets my needs. If you have any specific questions about this model, let me know.

  13. #43
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    In the price range you are looking I was going to suggest trying to find a Ridgid 3650 it is a good saw and can do most of the work a hobbiest would throw at it. I owned one for a while but traded up to a Jet Supersaw mainly to help a lifelong woodworker who recently became terminally ill and needed to sell his tools to help pay expenses. I bought my ridgid 3650 for $175 (I probably could have gotten him a little lower) but it was left outside for a while and needed extensive work to clean up the top from all the rust. It also needed a fence, I had a Unifence I mounted to it and it worked great, When I sold it I sold it for $350 but I probably could have gotten more if I wanted to wait. I would try offering 250-300 for a Ridgid 3650 without problems, I would offer more for one equiped with an aftermarket fence. The saw is solid and I had no complaints.


    Having more tools than I know how to use - Priceless!!!

  14. #44
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    One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned. Everybody is "cabinet saw is the holy grail". They're nice....I have a Grizzly 1023 which can be had for around $500+- used. It WILL NOT RUN on 120 volts. No way no how. Any cabinet saw is going to require a 230 volt 15-20 amp circuit so factor that in. Some hybrid saws have the trunnion assembly bolted to the table, others are light-duty cabinet saw setups. Hybrids will run on 120 volts although you can't have 4 things plus the saw running on one 15 amp circuit. The discontinued Sears "Zipcode" saws are an excellent choice if you can find one. The trunnions mount to the cabinet no the top, like a cabinet saw. model 221xx e.g. 22124 comes with a genuine bies fence that's worth $200+ by itself. Steel City was selling a hybrid saw which was very similar to the Sears zipcode.

  15. #45
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by James White View Post
    I... Scott Spencer is one person on this forum that has somewhat of a table saw fetish....
    Hi everyone....my name is Scott and I have a table saw fetish.
    Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

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