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Thread: New Set of Sharpening Stones

  1. #1
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    New Set of Sharpening Stones

    I am thinking about purchasing a set of Shapton Pro stones in 1000, 5000, and 8000 grits and a course/extra course diamond stone for flattening. Will you sharpening experts tell me if I am on the right track with my selections? I am currently using Norton 1000, 4000, and 8000 stones with a Norton flattening plate. I just feel it is the time to upgrade. I appreciate any advice.

  2. #2
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    Are the Norton's worn out?

    My thought would be to use them until they are no longer useful.

    Maybe buy a Shapton in the 15,000 range.

    Just my
    2¢ Two Cents.jpg

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  3. #3
    Mike I have the same set of Nortons plus a diamond plate for flattening. I find myself thinking about upgrading because other stones are reported to cut faster. However, then I think about all the other tools I want to buy and that the Nortons are doing just fine. How about a plow plane, rabbet plane, shoulder plane, set of Lie Nielsen chisels, some nice saws... instead? Sorry, I may be "projecting" as they say!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gottlieb View Post
    I am thinking about purchasing a set of Shapton Pro stones in 1000, 5000, and 8000 grits and a course/extra course diamond stone for flattening. Will you sharpening experts tell me if I am on the right track with my selections? I am currently using Norton 1000, 4000, and 8000 stones with a Norton flattening plate. I just feel it is the time to upgrade. I appreciate any advice.
    I bought some Sigma Power Ceramic stones from Stu (TFJ) and they (1000, 6000, 13000) are INCREDIBLE, cutting far better than my Ark oil stones and my Norton water stones. These Sigmas are fantastic.

    First, with two O1 chisels (Irwin, 1/2 and 3/4) I went from flattening the backs to sharpening bevels on the Norton 1000 and the Sigma 1000. The Sigma 1000 was multiple times faster!!!!! At least 3x faster. And, it left a sharper, more polished edge than the Norton. IT LEFT A LOT LESS MESS, TOO. This stone is incredibly responsive (its the Sigma hard) and very, very dish resistant. I kept drawing lines to see where it was dishing--and it wasn't.

    By the end of the morning, I concluded that oil stones produce an edge that is as sharp as the Norton 8000 but not as polished. The Norton 8000 leaves the edge less sharp than the Sigma 6000, though its polish is nearly comparable. The Sigma 13000 continues to cut and polish to a very high mirror polish. Cutting SYP end grain has never been so easy. The sharpness factor is clearly better than a blade sharpened to 6000--but I don't know a quantifiable way to define that experience. So, YMMV.

    When I took the Irwins, Stanley's, Ashley Iles, and Lie Nielsons off the Sigma Power stones, I couldn't believe how mirror polished the backs and bevels were!! Yes, I consistently get wicked sharp with Ark oil stones (ain't no betta!!); but, the Sigma ceramics just cut and polish so much faster than the either the oil stones and the nortons. BTW, my Ark. stones cut A2, as well as the Nortons--though the Nortons are a little faster on the A2; about the same for 01. The Sigmas are screaming fast compared to that.

    There is some mess. But compared to the Nortons, the Sigmas are significantly less messy in fresh dressing, water spritzing, and clean up. The Sigmas cut faster, resist dishing significantly longer, and leave the beginnings of mirror polishing much quicker--oh, and draw burr extremely faster, too.

    I've been able to compare these findings with a used Chosera 1000. Wow! The Chosera 1000 is a lot harder and more dish resistant than the Nortons (way more so) and even more resistant than the Sigma 1000. Because it tends to load faster, it cuts messier by all the water I use to diffuse the loading. The stone cuts beautifully and nearly as quickly (or maybe just as quickly) as the Sigma 1000. In a longevity contest, I'd bet the Chosera would outlast my Sigma 1000 by perhaps twice. However, in terms of cutting power, failing to load up and glaze, and polish, the Chosera can't keep up with the Sigma Power 1000. Given the fact that it's typically twice the price, well . . . you draw the conclusion.

    One day I'll beg or borrow a Shapton Pro 1000 and 2000 to test against the Sigma 1k and the Chosera 1k. The Shapton beats all three (Norton, Sigma, and Chosera) in terms of readiness right out of the box--it needs no soak whereas the others do though the Chosera and Sigma are really short soaks (my experience). David Weaver and Derek Cohen and others should be able to provide you with great info about the Shaptons.

    As far as a system, I find I need more help in the lower grits than the upper ones. David Weaver recommends the 1000 followed by a 15000. I now understand that, though I wouldn't ask my Sigma or Chosera 1000 to stretch that far: smaller steps shorten the work along the way and better prepare blades for cutting and polishing. However, I will concede to David that a 1000 grit, well-sharpened blade is by far more important than the upper grits.

    If you are primarily working Veritas, Hock, LN, Cosman, etc, blades then you probably won't need stones in the 120/240/400/800 range prior to the 1000 (especially since a Shapton Pro 1000 is really a 700 grit stone). But, if you are rehabbing older blades, get ready to buy these lower grit stones, too.

    Good luck with your purchase! And, I really think that all you need is a replacement for the Norton 220/1000 stones. Your Norton 4000/8000 stones are great quality! So, buy a quality 1k stone. That's essential. If you're able, I'd recommend a quality upper range stone, too. For me, that's a no-brainer, the Sigma power 13000 from TFJ. It's just that good!!!!
    Last edited by Archie England; 08-14-2011 at 9:37 PM.

  5. #5
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    Mike,
    Stay the course...what you have is perfectly adequate....IMHO....I should have taken my own advice! I went the Shapton route...nice waterstones but not sure if they are worth the price in comparison to the 1k, 4k, 8k Norton stones I had!
    The only change I suggest is find a different method to flatten your stones....glass and coarse sandpaper will work or a coarse diamond stone.

    Jim
    "Your beliefs don't make you a better person...your behavior does."

  6. #6
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    Others are right. You certainly don't need to upgrade, but there are distinct advantages to better stones. These benefits will mainly fall into the nicer to use category - yes better stones will help you to get a better edge, but the biggest benefits come in the form of speed, dish resistance, soak time, amount of mess, and ease of flattening.

    Before upgrading ask yourself what is you wish your Nortons did better. If you are fine with the speed, amount of soaking and level of dishing/dish resistance, but just want a finer edge skip the new stones and just get a strop and some honing compound.

    If you are unhappy with any of the aforementioned ease-of-use aspects then it may well be worth it to upgrade. Either Sigmas or Shaptons would likely be a very nice improvement in those respects. What you go with for an upgrade depends on what your looking for in a stone.

  7. #7
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    It may depend some on your personal sharpening routine. IF you hollow grind, you don't have a great need for fast cutting stone since you are cutting such a small area of metal. If you don't hollow grind, you may well benefit from a fast stone.

  8. #8
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    I Have several king stones that I no longer use bcause i find them to be a bit of a pain to soak and keep flat. I upgraded to a set of shapton pro stone in 1K, 5K, and 15K. I would say that i am really glad to have gone with the 15k over an 8k shapton. it cuts much faster then my king 8k stone.... accept for flattening and polishing chisle and plane iron backs, i use the 1k and go straight to the 15k.


    I have a DMT course/x course... the big one... and it works great for serious regrinding when the microbevel gets to wide, and for flattening of the shaptons.

    so I say if you want the shaptons go for it, I really like mine, and skip the 8k and go to the 15, espically if you microbevel.
    Andrew Gibson
    Program Manger and Resident Instructor
    Florida School Of Woodwork

  9. #9
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    Also, you might want to consider just replacing the Norton 1k as a start. IMHO the 1k is where the Nortons really fall short. I think the 4k and 8k are actually pretty nice stones.

    There are a lot of far better 1k stones out there several of which are not all that expensive - these include the sigma, shapton, bester, arashiyama, chosera, and super stone. Chefknivestogo.com sells a number of nice 1k stones, as does toolsfromjapan.com and toolsforworkingwood.com

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Griggs View Post
    Also, you might want to consider just replacing the Norton 1k as a start. IMHO the 1k is where the Nortons really fall short. I think the 4k and 8k are actually pretty nice stones.
    Good point. My experience has been similar. Most of my sharpening is done on the 1,000. The higher grits don't take much time at all so the cutting speed is not so important.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie England View Post
    I bought some Sigma Power Ceramic stones from Stu (TFJ) and they (1000, 6000, 13000) are INCREDIBLE, cutting far better than my Ark oil stones and my Norton water stones. These Sigmas are fantastic.

    First, with two O1 chisels (Irwin, 1/2 and 3/4) I went from flattening the backs to sharpening bevels on the Norton 1000 and the Sigma 1000. The Sigma 1000 was multiple times faster!!!!! At least 3x faster. And, it left a sharper, more polished edge than the Norton. IT LEFT A LOT LESS MESS, TOO. This stone is incredibly responsive (its the Sigma hard) and very, very dish resistant. I kept drawing lines to see where it was dishing--and it wasn't.

    By the end of the morning, I concluded that oil stones produce an edge that is as sharp as the Norton 8000 but not as polished. The Norton 8000 leaves the edge less sharp than the Sigma 6000, though its polish is nearly comparable. The Sigma 13000 continues to cut and polish to a very high mirror polish. Cutting SYP end grain has never been so easy. The sharpness factor is clearly better than a blade sharpened to 6000--but I don't know a quantifiable way to define that experience. So, YMMV.

    When I took the Irwins, Stanley's, Ashley Iles, and Lie Nielsons off the Sigma Power stones, I couldn't believe how mirror polished the backs and bevels were!! Yes, I consistently get wicked sharp with Ark oil stones (ain't no betta!!); but, the Sigma ceramics just cut and polish so much faster than the either the oil stones and the nortons. BTW, my Ark. stones cut A2, as well as the Nortons--though the Nortons are a little faster on the A2; about the same for 01. The Sigmas are screaming fast compared to that.

    There is some mess. But compared to the Nortons, the Sigmas are significantly less messy in fresh dressing, water spritzing, and clean up. The Sigmas cut faster, resist dishing significantly longer, and leave the beginnings of mirror polishing much quicker--oh, and draw burr extremely faster, too.

    I've been able to compare these findings with a used Chosera 1000. Wow! The Chosera 1000 is a lot harder and more dish resistant than the Nortons (way more so) and even more resistant than the Sigma 1000. Because it tends to load faster, it cuts messier by all the water I use to diffuse the loading. The stone cuts beautifully and nearly as quickly (or maybe just as quickly) as the Sigma 1000. In a longevity contest, I'd bet the Chosera would outlast my Sigma 1000 by perhaps twice. However, in terms of cutting power, failing to load up and glaze, and polish, the Chosera can't keep up with the Sigma Power 1000. Given the fact that it's typically twice the price, well . . . you draw the conclusion.

    One day I'll beg or borrow a Shapton Pro 1000 and 2000 to test against the Sigma 1k and the Chosera 1k. The Shapton beats all three (Norton, Sigma, and Chosera) in terms of readiness right out of the box--it needs no soak whereas the others do though the Chosera and Sigma are really short soaks (my experience). David Weaver and Derek Cohen and others should be able to provide you with great info about the Shaptons.

    As far as a system, I find I need more help in the lower grits than the upper ones. David Weaver recommends the 1000 followed by a 15000. I now understand that, though I wouldn't ask my Sigma or Chosera 1000 to stretch that far: smaller steps shorten the work along the way and better prepare blades for cutting and polishing. However, I will concede to David that a 1000 grit, well-sharpened blade is by far more important than the upper grits.

    If you are primarily working Veritas, Hock, LN, Cosman, etc, blades then you probably won't need stones in the 120/240/400/800 range prior to the 1000 (especially since a Shapton Pro 1000 is really a 700 grit stone). But, if you are rehabbing older blades, get ready to buy these lower grit stones, too.

    Good luck with your purchase! And, I really think that all you need is a replacement for the Norton 220/1000 stones. Your Norton 4000/8000 stones are great quality! So, buy a quality 1k stone. That's essential. If you're able, I'd recommend a quality upper range stone, too. For me, that's a no-brainer, the Sigma power 13000 from TFJ. It's just that good!!!!
    MY HEAD IS SPINNING!!!!

    My advice, keep it simple.

  12. #12
    I say 1k to 15k because I lean heavily on the grinder. If I have to refresh the hollow every two hones with the dry grinder, I will do that - that grind is less than a minute, no dipping in water, etc (cool the tool with my palm or not at all, it is a short grinding session - not a hog fest). It's usually more like every 3 or 4 hones, though.

    Synthetic stones cut so fast, especially on carbon steel and A2, that if you mind how much metal you're actually working and let the grinder do what it's good at (removing the metal where the finish doesn't matter), you can get away with a lot and still have only the finest scratches at the tool edge.

    I know larry williams does the same thing effectively with a medium india and an HTA ark and a hollow grind. And anyone who uses microbevels can do the same. Grind primary at 25, grind secondary about 5 or 6 degrees above that, and tertiary slightly beyond that. Even if you use a honing guide, if you make an iron absolutely non-cutting dull, you should be able to get back to 3 times as sharp as you'd ever need for woodworking in 2 minutes.

    I use the shaptons the most because in the end it takes the least amount of time to sharpen and maintain the stones, and the edge off of a 15k pro is 3 times as sharp as anything I really *need*. I could only have the 5k and a strop and still never lack for sharpness for anything, especially as you get familiar with your stones - you learn to get more out of them - how to make them cut fine, how to make them cut fast, ... But it doesn't really matter what stones anyone gets - just get decent stones that you don't mind using. If you're not getting sharp tools with every decent stone, it isn't the arrow, it's the indian.

    And if you buy the shaptons, buy the pros and skip buying them in the US - buy them from a foreign source (look around on ebay, amazon). There are 12k pros on ebay right now for about $80 (far as I know, same thing as the stone called 15k in the us), and there are likely 1k pros for about $45. Compare that price for the 12k to what the 15k sells for in the US after it has a layer of cost added on at distribution.

    If you buy any stone that you feel like it's not thick enough or it's fragile, glue it to a piece of quartersawn wood. Every stone is nicer to use with a base, even the big bester sized stones. I despise the skinny little glasstones, but even those are not unpleasant to use glued to a sized piece of hardwood.

    Just remember, learn to use the grinder and always err on the side of it being the indian and not the arrow. You can waste a lot of money trying various stones and really be no better off ... trust me.

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