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Thread: veneer help

  1. #1
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    Cool veneer help

    I took a dive into another unchartered territory (for me) of woodworking. Got me a bunch of burl veneer and am going to try and use it on a table top, 12"X40". I've never worked with veneer before and don't have a vacuum press either. I have done some reading and it seems I can pull it off using contact cement and some good planning.

    I seek your opinions on the pros and cons of using contact cement, not that I have a choice (being without a vacuum press) but I would still like to educate myself. What kind of cement/glue works best if I have to apply a glossy top coat, such as polyurethane.

    Any other methods besides vacuum press I can use to bookmatch and apply veneer to a substrate.

    If you can provide links to on-line tutorials it will be great.
    The means by which an end is reached must exemplify the value of the end itself.

  2. #2
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    contact cement NO NO ! Get some unibond 800. You can bond a veneer to a top in many ways- remember we didn't always have vaccuum presses. You can put some cawls on it and use clamps, you always have to be careful however of the veneer moving, so I recommend taping the book matches together with veneer tape (on the top or "good" side if it's not a backed veneer. I would recommend not starting with a burl as they have challenges (less so if a backed veneer.) I would buy some cheap ash or maple veneers and experiment with them.

  3. #3
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    I seem to recall there is some glue information on the joe woodworker web site that you might find helpful. While they sell parts to construct your own vacuum press, there is also quiet a bit of verneering info there.

  4. #4
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    Without a press I would look at hide glue and hammer veneering. That was the way it was done for hundreds of years before presses. Try to find "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking". I think it just came back into print from Taunton. He has quite a section on veneering which would be a great place to start.

  5. #5
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    One other option is to use press frames. I've used these on small veneer projects in the past and have had good results. The wood for my frames was free. I was able to make some 3x3's out of pallet runners. The corner joints are all bridle joints then nuts/bolts through the joints. I've got various sizes of the frames, but actually only have around 8 of the press screws. I was trying to keep the costs downs, so depending on what size panels I need to press, I grab the right sized frames and transfer the press screws to the frames. I think my screws are 12", but I think you can also get 9" and 6" for less cost.
    Use the fence Luke

  6. #6
    Unibond is great stuff but not necessary. There is a bit of a learning curve for hammer veneering. And without a bag you may be biting off more than you can chew on a piece that size. I've done a bit of veneer work, both Hammer veneering and pressing in a bag. A panel the size that you're attempting is simply easiest in a bag. Also what you need to remember is that If you are using a burl more than likely it was a little pricey so you'd hate to end up burning it. If I was you I'd look for an inexpensive pump on that big auction site (usually around $50 for a new or refurbed overstock and always available) and buy a bag or make one. You'll have about $125 into it by the time you make a plenum and it will more than pay for itself. If you work fast you can use regular old titebond glue. I only use Unibond if the panel is huge and I risk having a long open time before I can get it into the press. Contact cement is definately a No No.
    "When we build, let us think that we build forever." - Ruskin

  7. #7
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    Zahid,

    There's some good information on veneering at <a href="http://www.oakwoodveneer.com/tips.html">Oakwood Veneer</a>.

    Are you using paper-backed veneer or flitches?

    Regards,
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Bill Arnold
    NRA Life Member
    Member of Mensa
    Live every day like it's your last, but don't forget to stop and smell the roses.

  8. #8
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    So far I have found useful info at Joe wood worker and Oak wood veneer. The veneer I am using is item number 7300354566 on the auction site, as you can see it's not backed, it's a burl veneer, and I am already starting to feel I have bit more than I can swallow/chew. There seems to be a unanimous opposition to contact cement what else can I use; titebond cold press for veneer http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product...&sku=2220&cs=1, unibond 800 (as Keith recommends). Joe woodworker has a good review of glues for veneering who inclines towards unibond 800.

    Doug, I have looked at some press frame designs it might be something I can pull off.

    Steve, I am not sure about making a vacuum press. I am still a novice and not sure how much veneering I will do in the future. I am in the learning mode and try to do a different project each time to learn some new techniques. But I will keep your advice in mind if I get into doing more veneering.

    One question I do have is; do you book match and edge joint the veneer before you put it on a substrate or after.
    The means by which an end is reached must exemplify the value of the end itself.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Shepard
    I think my screws are 12", but I think you can also get 9" and 6" for less cost.
    Doug, where did you get your press screws from. The only place I can find is woodcraft, which is selling these for $18. I'd rather make a vacuum press than buy 8-10 of these.
    The means by which an end is reached must exemplify the value of the end itself.

  10. #10
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    my guess is the the burl is also sort of "fried bacon" wavy. If this is so then you need to get some veneer softeneer and soften it. I happen to like constanties veneer softerer, but there are others. I agree with the post that said bit the bullet and build a bag and press. I did and it was really pretty easy.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahid Naqvi
    ....
    Doug, I have looked at some press frame designs it might be something I can pull off....
    I'll try to get some digital pics taken this weekend. They're pretty quick and simple to make.
    Use the fence Luke

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahid Naqvi
    Doug, where did you get your press screws from. The only place I can find is woodcraft, which is selling these for $18. I'd rather make a vacuum press than buy 8-10 of these.
    You can get them from rockler. Interesting thing though, if you buy a bunch of them you will be almost in the price range of a vaccuum press. Well the 1hg one rockler sells. Also the thing about working with burls is that they are naturally "open" which is to say they usually have small holes in them. This presents a problem because in the ones you see it's ok, but the ones you don't see you can get bleed through. make sure you don't use too much glue (should be the case for ANY woodworking not just veneers.) and good clamping pressure.



    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Wargo
    Unibond is great stuff but not necessary. There is a bit of a learning curve for hammer veneering. And without a bag you may be biting off more than you can chew on a piece that size. I've done a bit of veneer work, both Hammer veneering and pressing in a bag. A panel the size that you're attempting is simply easiest in a bag. Also what you need to remember is that If you are using a burl more than likely it was a little pricey so you'd hate to end up burning it. If you work fast you can use regular old titebond glue. I only use Unibond if the panel is huge and I risk having a long open time before I can get it into the press. Contact cement is definately a No No
    Steve,
    I agree with you totally about hammer veneering. There is no doubt a bag makes things easier. I would however not use regular titebond, while it is fine and will work, the PVA glues have a tendency to "creep" over time. Also bleedout it a problem with them I've noticed more so that the UB 800. yes open times with titebond are VERY limited. Don't you hate feeling like you're rushing when playing with veneers.

    Keith

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lou sansone
    my guess is the the burl is also sort of "fried bacon" wavy. If this is so then you need to get some veneer softeneer and soften it. I happen to like constanties veneer softerer, but there are others. I agree with the post that said bit the bullet and build a bag and press. I did and it was really pretty easy.
    Lou ,

    Good point. I found a good flattening formula (unless you buy the stuff on Joe woodworker.) somewhere on the internet a while ago. Here is is, You don't have to put it in a press just put some evenly distributed weight on it.

    VENEER FLATTENING FORMULA


    Mix Together:

    2 parts white or yellow glue
    3 parts water
    1 part glycerin
    1 part denatured alcohol



    1. Mix all components together thoroughly and apply to both sides of the veneer liberally.

    2. Let soak for a minute or two

    3. Place veneer between fiberglass window screen (both sides) and add 2-3 layers of
    newspaper on top of the screen. You may continue by adding more newspaper, screen,
    veneer, etc., stacking as high as you like. Flip each veneer end for end so the wavy parts
    are not all in the same spot.

    4. Place this "sandwich" in your veneer press with a caul on top (1/4" minimum.) and
    apply full pressure.

    5. Change the newspaper 3 times the first day and leave under pressure overnight.

    6. On the second day remove the sandwich from the press and take away the screen, it is
    no longer needed, as the veneer will not stick to the newspaper anymore.

    7. Change the newspaper 3 times this day but do not put the sandwich in the press, just
    place weight on top of the caul to hold the stack down. It is easy to think this second day
    is unnecessary since the veneer will feel fairly dry, but it is not dry enough to press. This
    extra day is important for good final results.

    8. On the third day the veneer is ready to use. If you do not use it immediately the veneer
    will stay flat for months provided a board is placed on top of the veneer stack, apply light
    pressure. Newspaper between the veneer is unnecessary at this point

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zahid Naqvi
    Doug, where did you get your press screws from. The only place I can find is woodcraft, which is selling these for $18. I'd rather make a vacuum press than buy 8-10 of these.
    Well they have gone up a bit since I bought mine. I got the 12" ones from 7 Corners. I think they were maybe 12.99? They're now 17.50 for the 12" and 14.50 for the 9".
    http://www.7corners.com/7c_store/fin...-198886125&cat

    I looked up Highland Hardware and they have them for $0.49 more ea size.
    Woodcraft's price is for the 9", so they're pretty high. All of these are Jorgensen BTW.

    I noticed in my last WW Supply catolog that they now have an import 9" that they're selling under the Woodtek name. Decent price for the 9" - $10.99
    http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPR...ARTNUM=123-767
    Use the fence Luke

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Shepard
    I noticed in my last WW Supply catolog that they now have an import 9" that they're selling under the Woodtek name. Decent price for the 9" - $10.99
    http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPR...ARTNUM=123-767
    That's more up my alley, $8.49 if you buy 4 or more.
    The means by which an end is reached must exemplify the value of the end itself.

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