Electrical Panel question

[Matt Day]

We recently moved into a new house which was built in the 60's and has been updated over the years, the latest being within 5 years ago or so with a kitchen renovation and new master bath. For work I'm a Project Manager for a commerical construction so I'm used to looking for life safety issues, water issues, and punchlist items.

One of the areas I'm far from an expert at is electrical, and I need to get 220V down to my basement shop and would like to have a licensed electrician do a once over of our house's wiring. Attached are pictures of my electrical panel (100A), which as far as I can tell is completely full. I haven't done much research yet but my gut is telling me that a 100A panel for a 2500 SF house is pretty small.

On top of that, the lighting in the house is terrible. The lights upstairs that aren't plugged into an outlet is a hall light and the two bathrooms - none at all in the 4 bedrooms. So I plan to pop in lots of can lights from the attic space, and of course adding load to the panel.

I'm pretty sure I need at least a subpanel, if not a new main panel and use the current one as the subpanel to the new one. I plan to research a bit more on it, and get an electrician out here to look it over as well. I would do as much of the work as I can that I feel comfortable with. IMG00236-20110908-1855.jpgIMG00235-20110908-1839.jpg

Could you guys/gals think about this issue and respond? Any suggestions? Thanks!

[Dan Friedrichs]

I don't like seeing multiple different types/brands of breakers mixed together in one box, so that alone would be a compelling reason to do some major upgrading. Also, as you note, most houses this size are being built with 200A panels, today.

For a few hundred dollars, you could buy a new 200A subpanel and all the breakers you would need. Replacing the panel is not technically challenging, either - it would probably only take a few hours. You're lucky that you apparently have all copper wiring - you could be in a much more difficult situation if you had aluminum. It even looks like they left plenty of extra wire (generally, it's nice to see wires come in and be just long enough to reach where they're going, so it's not a huge tangle), so you'll have some flexibility.

You do need to ascertain if you have 200A service available to the house, though - the line/transformer/meter from the power company into your breaker box may only be sufficient for 100A. Your power company should be willing to help you figure this out, and/or upgrade your service to 200A.

[Ken Deckelman]

I don't like seeing multiple different types/brands of breakers mixed together in one box, so that alone would be a compelling reason to do some major upgrading. Also, as you note, most houses this size are being built with 200A panels, today.For a few hundred dollars, you could buy a new 200A subpanel and all the breakers you would need. Replacing the panel is not technically challenging, either - it would probably only take a few hours. You're lucky that you apparently have all copper wiring - you could be in a much more difficult situation if you had aluminum. It even looks like they left plenty of extra wire (generally, it's nice to see wires come in and be just long enough to reach where they're going, so it's not a huge tangle), so you'll have some flexibility.You do need to ascertain if you have 200A service available to the house, though - the line/transformer/meter from the power company into your breaker box may only be sufficient for 100A. Your power company should be willing to help you figure this out, and/or upgrade your service to 200A.

Great advice. Get that panel/service upgraded first, then add a sub-panel for the shop area.

[Von Bickley]

Great advice to up-grade to a 200 amp panel with a sub-panel for the shop area.

I'm a retired electrician and we NEVER put a 100 amp panel in a house. The smallest service we ever put in was a 125 amp service and that was on homes that were about 1200 sq. ft.

[Matt Day]

Thanks for the advice guys - and Dan, you may be getting some PM's!

Just to clarify, do you think I should swap out the existing panel for a 200A one, or should/can I use the existing as the main panel with a 200A subpanel?

I'll start digging into exactly what that will require and cost, and expore the existing service we have to the house.

Thanks again Dan, Ken, and Von!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Matt.....you should swap the panel out and you will probably have to pull new feeders to it to handle the extra load/current.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Typically the subpanel is fed from the main panel, so it's not possible to feed a 200A subpanel from a 100A main. Unless your planned shop is some significant distance away from the main panel, I'd suggest just replacing the main panel with a 200A service, and forgoing the subpanel altogether. When you add up all the circuits you need for your shop, it may be few enough that it's easier to just wire them to the main panel.

[Ken Deckelman]

Just to clarify, do you think I should swap out the existing panel for a 200A one, or should/can I use the existing as the main panel with a 200A subpanel?

Replace the current main panel with a 200 amp one with 42 spaces, then add a 100 amp sub for the shop. You may even be able to use the old main for your sub if it's in good shape, but I would want all new with matching breakers in my house...but that's just me.

First call should be the power company to see what your options are for a 200 amp service.

[Mike Henderson]

Typically the subpanel is fed from the main panel, so it's not possible to feed a 200A subpanel from a 100A main. Unless your planned shop is some significant distance away from the main panel, I'd suggest just replacing the main panel with a 200A service, and forgoing the subpanel altogether. When you add up all the circuits you need for your shop, it may be few enough that it's easier to just wire them to the main panel.

I'd disagree with Dan here. I much prefer to have a sub panel than to pull from the main box. One reason is that the subpanel is in my shop and I have a main breaker on it so I can shut the whole shop off easily if I need to. Also, in some situations (mine, for example), it's difficult to pull new wire from my main panel because it's mounted on the outside of the house and the house is stucco. Pulling new wire requires using conduit on the outside of the house. My subpanel is maybe six feet from the main panel but it faces inward and I can add wires to it by cutting drywall. The back side of the main panel is the living room and my wife would have my head if I started cutting drywall in the living room to add circuits - plus I'd still have to get them into the garage somehow.

So I have a very short run of feeder wire from the main panel to the subpanel and one conduit on the outside of the house.

AND, when you want to add wiring (which you will in the future) you can kill the breaker to the subpanel and work on it safely. Otherwise, unless you want to work on the main panel hot, you have to cut power to the whole house.

Finally, subpanels are not that expensive and are a one time cost. I just feel they are well worth it.

Mike

[Matt Meiser]

It looks like you have a mix of Siemens and Cutler Hammer breakers. Who made the panel? I recently had a problem that might have been caused by a Siemens breaker the previous owner installed in my Westinghouse (now CH) panel. I couldn't find where Siemens breakers are rated for CH panels and I assume vise-versa is true.

[Stan Krupowies]

I'd disagree with Dan here. I much prefer to have a sub panel than to pull from the main box. One reason is that the subpanel is in my shop and I have a main breaker on it so I can shut the whole shop off easily if I need to. Also, in some situations (mine, for example), it's difficult to pull new wire from my main panel because it's mounted on the outside of the house and the house is stucco. Pulling new wire requires using conduit on the outside of the house. My subpanel is maybe six feet from the main panel but it faces inward and I can add wires to it by cutting drywall. The back side of the main panel is the living room and my wife would have my head if I started cutting drywall in the living room to add circuits - plus I'd still have to get them into the garage somehow.

So I have a very short run of feeder wire from the main panel to the subpanel and one conduit on the outside of the house.

AND, when you want to add wiring (which you will in the future) you can kill the breaker to the subpanel and work on it safely. Otherwise, unless you want to work on the main panel hot, you have to cut power to the whole house.

Finally, subpanels are not that expensive and are a one time cost. I just feel they are well worth it.

Mike

I agree 100% with Mike. In my case the main is only 20' from my basement shop but I'd much rather only pull the 20' once instead of 15 times. With the cost of copper these days it's probably about the same cost to place a new sub-panel but you gain much more in convenience.

[Dan Friedrichs]

Mike is correct that you may prefer a subpanel for some uses. It really depends on how far away from the main panel your shop is, and how many circuits you want to add (or anticipate adding in the future). If your shop is some distance from the main, it may be cheaper to run a single feed from the main panel to the sub (versus running each individual circuit from the shop to the main panel). But if your shop is right next to the main, there may be no great reason to bother with a subpanel. Your choice, really.

[Anthony Whitesell]

You can find a post about my main panel upgrade I did in July. But here's the short story.

Contact the power company, make sure your triplex is rated for 200A or if they will have to change it out. While you're at it, verify where their "responsibility" ends. For me it was at the meter which works out best. They pull out the meter and kill the power at the weatherhead. You install a new meter socket (mine was free from the PoCo) and run the 4-0/4-0/4-0 Al SEU to the main panel. After the inspection passes, you call them back, they come out change the SEU on the house, and reconnect the weatherhead and reinstall the meter.

I had Square D, I like Square D, so I stayed with Square D. I got my new main panel from superbreakers.net for $170 (free shipping, free cover, includes 200A main breaker, p/n q140m200). Their price on breakers was better than the BORG, but I didn't need any as I resused my old ones (which I think we're agreeing that would not be the best for you). Everything else (SEU wire, ground rod and wire, JB cable clamps, etc.), I used competitor's coupons and price matching to play Home Depot against Lowe's and spent $110 for all the little pieces. In the end I spent less than $500, including the $50 permit, and a day off from work to upgrade my 100A panel to 200A.

Most of the time will be spent working with the power company, secondly spent finding a day when the company and the inspector are both available.

[Don Jarvie]

There's some good advice here. In the long run your better off getting an electrician over and give you an assessment of you whole house and how much it will cost to have the system upgraded, installing new circuits, etc. For the money you may save doing it yourself, it will take weeks for you to finish the job conpared to a few days tops. Fishing wires is a pain in the butt.

The advice about using the old panel as your sub for the shop is great. The electrician can mount the box and put in a main line for it and you can wire the shop yourself at your own pace.

[Jay Maiers]

AND, when you want to add wiring (which you will in the future) you can kill the breaker to the subpanel and work on it safely. Otherwise, unless you want to work on the main panel hot, you have to cut power to the whole house.

Mike

Agreed!
I think I could have fit all of my electrical needs into our orignal panel. However, adding a sub panel for shop stuff but leaving one set of outlets and some lights hooked to the original panel allows me to shut things down and work / change things at my leisure. Having the lights on (plus a couple of outlets) is a big bonus