Bench Hooks Vs Miter Box

[Mike Holbrook]

So I am on the hand saw kick. I just bought two CC saws:a saw kit for a Wenzloff & Son's- Half-Back, 18" blade, 10ppi, and 26 3/8", 6ppi auction saw. I also bough a couple rip saws at auction: 22 1/4", 8 ppi, 26" blade, 5 ppi. I was shooting for a coarse & medium saw in both basic western saw types. I figured my Japanese joinery saws and my one Western backsaw would handle the finer work until I learn a little more.

I have been reading my new copy of Hand Tool Essentials concerning saws and I am trying to take some time to learn how to use these tools better. The work accuracy subject soon gets into bench hooks & saw rest/guides. It looks like some cut angles on their bench hooks or home made wooden miter boxes. Being use to doing construction work with a big compound miter saw the miter box appeals to me in terms of familiarity. I wonder if I invest in a good older miter box if I will have one tool that will save me lots of time & space vs making a collection of wood bench hooks etc.?I hate having to move that big old compound miter saw & it's stand. Certainly hand saws & a hand mitre box would be slower for large jobs than the electrical version, but I have more small jobs and less large ones these days. Actually I have mostly cabinet making & chair & table making projects vs construction projects these days. Without a bench or work tables at the business building on my property I am not sure how I could use bench hooks... there.

[Zach Dillinger]

The way I look at is if you can saw to a straight line, you can saw a miter without a box. Also, no matter what you do, if you are going to be making a precise miter joint, it is likely that the board will need some end grain cleanup to get it to fit tightly. So, why bother with a super-precision cut? Draw / knife your line and saw it to the best of your ability, and focus your efforts / money on a nice miter shooting board. The shoot board will trim your miters to smooth perfection, something that will be next to impossible to achieve off the saw, no matter what miter box you use.

[Mike Holbrook]

Good point Zach,
I am thinking in terms of sawing multiple pieces that need to match for things like carcass frames, door frames, drawer pieces....I think the miter box provides some ability to cut multiple similar pieces without having to try to mark all the pieces exactly the same. I was also thinking it should be quicker.

May be a mute point since I just bought a MIllers Falls 74C with Disston 33" Miter Saw at auction. Looked like a good deal for both tools, clearly functioning together, both in good used shape. I am thinking about designing a place in the shop to set it up for easy use, like some people build for their electric chop, miter saws. I was also thinking I could use the mitre box to mark boards, especially several boards that need to match. I would think a thin saw kerf line would be better than a marking knife line and easy to prepare on a mitre saw with a length stop. Then I could actually make the main cut(s) with a faster western type saw on a saw bench, knowing that they would be matched.

Definitely thinking about the shooting board, did not know there was a miter version?

[john brenton]

Ditto on all points. I don't cut many miters that matter (I don't consider quarter round molding to be a miter that matters), but when I do have to cut one that counts I cut freehand and my 45* is good...it's the squarness of the edge that is the problem. I don't see the need for a donkey's ear or similar shooting board for squaring up the edge...but it couldn't hurt.

I think Derek has a good article about it on his site. I'd check it out.

[Bill Houghton]

Well, you've already made some of the comments I was going to make unnecessary by buying one of the finer miter boxes ever made.

Yes, try to find room to set it up, if not permanently, at least semi-permanently (a bench surface on which you can clamp it in place when you need it). You do want to clamp it down, or use the screw holes in the feet to screw it down*; although it's heavy, it will move around under the saw.

You might find, if your saw is sharpened well, that you can get best cuts by sticking with the miter box saw all the way through. With a sharp saw, cutting goes quickly. And the M-F Langdon Acme boxes, like yours, guide the saw very effectively, to keep the cut square and true all the way through**.

*When you fasten it down, be prepared with shims to put under any rocking feet; you don't want to pull it out of square by fastening it to a non-flat bench surface. The plastic used in bleach and other laundry product bottles is excellent for this purpose: cut as many as you need with scissors and stack them up. And the price is right.

**Unintentional poetry tossed in there.

[Jim Matthews]

I have been surprised at how cleanly a properly sharpened saw leaves a finish.
I use a "reverse hook" on occasion - a length of 3/4" dowel in one of the dog holes, cutting on the pull stroke.

It's faster than any other cutting method I employ, but the least precise.
Funny how those two go together, in my dank playpen.

[Jim Koepke]

Without a bench or work tables at the business building on my property I am not sure how I could use bench hooks... there.

I have used bench hooks on saw horses and saw benches.

They even work outside on the top of stairs.

jtk

[Bob Smalser]

I avoid miter joints like the plague, but wouldn't be without a first-class miter box. In fact, I have three, to include a Stanley Miter Machine.

Speed and precision. A well-tuned saw combined with a stable work surface leaves a glueable surface that needs no cleanup, and I don't recall actually building anything that didn't require multiples....whether they be cutoffs, tenons, halflaps or miters. Have a dozen cutoffs to length? Screw the box to a work surface and fashion a simple end stop.
Want perfect tenon shoulders?? Simply fashion an additional depth stop from the correct thickness of stock.

[Andy Margeson]

+1. Here is what Chris S says:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wo...on-mitre-boxes

I was fortunate enough to buy a Langdon Acme miter box for $4 sans saw at a garage sale. Got the matching 28" saw for $35 and then got a beautiful 28" Disston with an apple handle for $15 at a flea market. I am not an expert by any means, but in taking the miter box apart to clean and restore it, I was amazed at the elegance and precision of the design. Truly a work of industrial art and a favorite tool.

I know there are folks who cut so well freehand that one of these is superfluous, but for me it is a path to precision and speed. I look forward to the day my chopsaw dies because I don't need it anymore.

[Mike Holbrook]

I was just trying to figure out how to convert a web picture to something I could move to Flicker so I could post a link to my new tool. So far I have not found a way to do it. Thanks for the pictures from the fellow posters. Bob I like that Stanley too. The seller ran a "one day" sale on the one I was following so I jumped on it. There was a practically brand new MF miter box, same model as mine, for auction for a while which was helpful as there were lots of pictures that I could compare to the one I bought. It was nice to be relatively confident there were no major missing parts.

I am still trying to figure out where I can set this tool up in the shop to make it easiest to use. I would like to have good work support with a fence that a work stop can clamp to or run on. I found a company on the net that makes specialized desks for schools. They actually sell a work bench/saw table with butcher block top that I guess are used by some schools. The center section has a low shelf to place a miter box in. I am thinking more of building some sort of frame that it fits into, all of which can be placed on any work table. Or maybe something that clamps to a sawbench. I am thinking the saw is best used a little over waist high, when standing. It also occurs to me that the raised mitre box might end up at a comfortable height just placed on a work bench? Good thing I am in the process of improving my shop area. Anyone design anything interesting for this purpose?

Apparently there are schools of thought on position to saw from for the hand/panel saws. Chris' sawbench design is 20", for kneeling on. I have read that there are also sawbench designs for sitting on. I like the idea of using the leverage of my entire body in most work but the miter saw might be workable form a sitting position as well? I have been thinking about building a stool for my shop too, might be a good project to get me into chairs.

[Russell Sansom]

I use a "kneeling" saw bench. It works well for me. There is the riddle of making it short enough to kneel on but tall enough that you don't jamb your saw into the work shop floor.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your question the answer is, NO. It's impractical to sit with your miter box. For me it needs to be somewhere around elbow height when I'm standing.

I was forming an answer to your bench hook question when I read Bob's reply. I have to agree with his response in spirit. Multiples, all the time. I can't think of a way to get a repeatable and a nearly-finished joint sawing freehand. Bench hooks and mitre boxes provide a simple, elegant, nice old-fashioned way to do the job right. I posted some photos a couple months ago of one setup I used to produce 100 tambour door slats. I want to say it would be "ridiculous" to cut 200 ends freehand, but I don't like using that kind of emphatic language on the forum because some people are enflamed by it.
However, I'll break my own ranks: It would be ridiculous to try to cut 100 sticks freehand, square in both axes and almost perfectly equal in length. Working on a construction site, for a few oddball miters, sure.
For something like tambour slats, where I'm aiming for better than .010" accuracy in length, I throw together ( for want of a better term ) a "cut off" shooting board to take them down to the final length. Getting them close to the finished length with a clean-cut face saves my precious shooting plane iron ( and the fewer times I have to dismantle it, lose my nice set-up,retouch the iron and find the sweet setup again , the better.) The bench hook gets them within a few hundredths.

For easy, repeatable, and accurate joints, I find that bench hooks, miter boxes, and shooting boards are essential in my shop.

[Mike Holbrook]

There are two designs for Sawbenches at Chris Schwarz's Blog page. The first design is a little more complicated & has a tool caddy the second design is a simpler version without a place to rest tools. There is a whole article with plans in Hand Tool Essentials for the original design. I am thinking about building one of each. The simpler design will stack on top of the original, I think. He makes his 20". A miter box might fit on top of one of these Sawbenches, especially if it were on a board that could be held in place via a holdfast. Mounting the miter saw this way would probably make it too low for comfortable use. I am thinking I will put mine on top of a tool storage cabinet long enough for the box & extensions.

There is a manual for the Millers Falls Mitre box, downloadable PDF, that is very helpful:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/hUS-borTo...rBox-HowTo.asp

[Russell Sansom]

This thread has wandered around a little, but here are some follow-up photos that go with my earlier comments.
Here's a straight-forward cutoff arrangement using a bench hook. It gets the lengths quite close to one another

bench_hook_.jpg

And a make shift shoot-to-length setup. This works as easily and as well as I could hope.
bench_hook_ (2).jpg

A jig for making a huge board out of 50-60 sticks. The blue tape-marked slats are depth stops that limit how deeply my beautiful #8 Bedrock can cut. This doesn't work quite as well as it seems it should...physics of wood, plane mechanics, and flatness cost a few thousands each. The tape is there just for the photo.
bench_hook_ (4).jpg

Skipping ahead in the process, here's the beginning of a ledge using this setup and a shoulder plane.

bench_hook_ (3).jpg

[Jake Rothermel]

Mike, thank you TONS for pointing me (okay, US) to that pdf. Like you, I've been on the fence for a while about mitre boxes [mitre? or miter?] but I've been leery about buying one [interwebs or tool swaps or what-have-you] because I've been so unfamiliar with their designs and their complete parts list [okay, maybe I don't need EVERY SINGLE part but it's nice to know what I'm missing]. EXACTLY what I need to decide if a box I find at an auction is worth picking up. Thank you!

[Mike Holbrook]

My pleasure,

I found it following another posters link to WK Fine Tools info. Wow what a resource of information there is hidden in that site. A search there almost always turns up good info.

Here is a link to some interesting Langdon history and the answer to the miter/mitre spelling question:

http://oldtoolheaven.com/related/miter-boxes.htm