I hope they start selling it in Massachusetts first.
Member
I hope they start selling it in Massachusetts first.
Member
Rob, I'll second you too. People don't get it because the SS company does not sell this point - the industrial is a way better saw. I OWNED a PM 66 -The SS industrial is leagues better.
Contributor
+1 My Sawstop ICS is a way better saw than the Unisaw I had. I also have a Bosch contractors saw....will sell and get the SS when it comes out.
Member
I'm not disagreeing but how do you know? I've always been curious who is selling the most saws.Originally Posted by David Hostetler
Member
What makes it Leagues better? How would you compare it to the PM2000 aside from the brake system?
Don
Member
Rob Sack: you are a man of fine taste, excellent insight, and power tool discernment.
My 5hp ICS is still in mothballs ... until we move, and I set up my new shop.
Meanwhile, my 4100 is a fine little saw
Member
I'm an advocate of safety, but I'm gettin' tired of all the Saw Stop stuff. They've got a good product, but you can hurt yourself a zillion times with all the other tools we use. I'll see if I can stop pocket knife injuries. Not tryin' to be a smart a$$. Just tryin' to be realistic. I've injured myself with a power drill, pinched fingers with a clamp, burned with a propane torch, sanded fingers with a belt sander, beat my fingers with a hammer, and I don't even want to start with crap about sharpening.
Am I in a minority?
Bill (who needs enlightening, or maybe just an old fa@t)
On the other hand, I still have five fingers.
Contributor
I can tell you that I've been working at my local Woodcraft one or two days a week for the last year. No one there can remember selling ANYTHING other than a SawStop in recent memory. Certainly not in the last year until recently when I sold a Rikon contractor saw...we brought in a couple because it's a reasonable saw and we were able to offer it at a good price. Other than that, nothing whatsoever except SawStops. It's not like we don't talk about Unisaws and PMs, but then they look at the prices and the SS premium just doesn't really materialize, especially when you toss the PCS into the mix. A PM2000 is $3000+. A Unisaw is right around $3000. A SS ICS is about $3500. The 3HP PCS is under $3000 and that's a heck of a nice saw too...I'd put that up against any 3HP saw on the market, including the Uni and the PM, if it's not in a busy shop or school (both of which will beat up and abuse the saw mercilessly). I usually recommend the ICS to schools because teenagers will break EVERYTHING no matter how well made it is. We had one break the handle off one of the adjustment wheels. If you saw the ICS in person you would scratch your head figuring out how they managed to do that, but they did. They are truly brutal.
The only place they get beat up on price is for the contractor saw, or when you start looking at the cheaper cabinet saws....and then the Unisaw and the PM2000 gets beat up on price too. Even there, the Rikon contractor saw is $900. The equivalent SS model (with cast iron wings) is $1700. The difference is $800, but it's difficult to make a comparison because the SS is a better saw, in my opinion, even if the only difference was the way the guard and riving knife attach. The Rikon just begs you to leave it all off...the SS is trivially easy to switch back and forth.
Anyhow, I don't know how they're calculating their numbers, but I don't find it hard to believe based on what I see everyday. Price really hasn't been a factor except at the low end, and once you're past that the SS pretty much has been selling itself.
Contributor
BTW, I'm not trying to make a case for or against anything. I'm just telling you the thought process people go through and why they're flying out of the showrooms.
Contributor
When I was in the market for a cabinet saw, I looked very closely at the SS ICS and compared it to the new Unisaw. Taking the brake out of the picture and just comparing the saws, I was much more impressed with the Unisaw's features, construction, and up front controls for both angle and riving knife adjustments. The ICS looks to be a great saw, but excluding the brake, I could not agree that it is way better than the new Delta.
Member
This is what I've wondered all along. Why single out the table saw? There are creative ways to injure yourself on the jobsite or in the shop that we probably haven't even thought of yet.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Sawstop, I've just always wondered.
Paul
Member
I just retired with 34 years in a prototype shop and have seen a ton of injuries most of which were caused because of people having too much pride to ask for help. When the old Rockwell Int'l Delta TS was replaced, it was by a SS. I only remember one serious saw injury by an untrained person. I did see a lot of scarey close calls but the ugliest injuries were with the 24" disc grinders. After a lot of different kinds of injuries and some OSHA fines and some firings of negligent supervisors, the company became fanatic about safety and additudes slowly changed. The purchase of the SS reflected this change. The SS will not stop all injuries but it show a concern for your employes as valued members of your team.
Member
Just because you can't protect yourself from all your tools doesn't mean it's absurd to protect yourself from some. Also, the injuries you mention don't usually result in amputation or come with life-altering consequences. Tablesaw injuries tend to. Now it's true you can end up with debilitating injuries from the jointer, bandsaw, router table, etc., but either we don't have good statistics on those or they just don't seem to be as frequent. Think outside of your woodworker box for a second. Tablesaws are just used a heck of a lot more than the other flesh-mangling devices we tend to talk about (by DIYers, contractors, construction workers, etc.). That's in part why TS injuries are more common, and that's why the TS is the focus of all of this.
Last edited by Victor Robinson; 12-15-2011 at 6:54 PM.
Member
I disagree with the suposed frequency of tablesaw blade contact injuries. Ive done this professionaly for 25 years and have never seen, known or even heard mention of a tablesaw blade contact injury. The only person ive met that had a tablesaw injury was a shop teacher, come to find out years later he lied. His finger was really shot off in ww2. Ive got myself a short finger but that was a RAS and way to much beer in my younger bullet proof years.
Member
I don't see a reason for docs/hospitals to conspire to report a false or inflated number. At best you could argue that the docs making those calls don't gather enough information to correctly attribute the cause of injury (e.g. kickback vs. no blade guard vs. freak accident vs. not paying attention and touching blade, etc.), but either way I'm not sure the people reporting the injuries have any incentive to inflate the overall numbers.I disagree with the suposed frequency of tablesaw blade contact injuries. Ive done this professionaly for 25 years and have never seen, known or even heard mention of a tablesaw blade contact injury. The only person ive met that had a tablesaw injury was a shop teacher, come to find out years later he lied. His finger was really shot off in ww2. Ive got myself a short finger but that was a RAS and way to much beer in my younger bullet proof years.
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