Yet Another Concrete coating question

[Thom Sturgill]

It looks like we are closing Monday on what my wife refers to as 'A shop with detached house'. The shop is a 10x20 wood floored shed that had a 20x30 pole barn built in front of it. the barn later (2007) had a concrete floor poured and the area between the poles filled in.
the concrete is smooth - not broomed - but appears unsealed. As a woodturner / woodworker I think it needs to be sealed and was planning on painting it. So I have a few questions of those who have been there:

1) Looking at 2 part epoxy - is this what I want or is one part worth considering? Pros and cons? Cost difference is not an issue. Keeping it clean is.

2) Sand and / or speckles to make it non slip? The example of the speckles at the local Borg looked like the speckles were very much on top of the paint and would catch dust.

3) How long to do this? from what i could see the floor did not look stained - do you have to acid wash? How long after before you can apply? How long before I can move equipment in?

[Daniel Berlin]

It looks like we are closing Monday on what my wife refers to as 'A shop with detached house'. The shop is a 10x20 wood floored shed that had a 20x30 pole barn built in front of it. the barn later (2007) had a concrete floor poured and the area between the poles filled in.
the concrete is smooth - not broomed - but appears unsealed. As a woodturner / woodworker I think it needs to be sealed and was planning on painting it. So I have a few questions of those who have been there:

1) Looking at 2 part epoxy - is this what I want or is one part worth considering? Pros and cons? Cost difference is not an issue. Keeping it clean is.

2) Sand and / or speckles to make it non slip? The example of the speckles at the local Borg looked like the speckles were very much on top of the paint and would catch dust.

3) How long to do this? from what i could see the floor did not look stained - do you have to acid wash? How long after before you can apply? How long before I can move equipment in?

1. You don't want a one part in most cases, though some of the very new one part technologies (ie one part polyurea systems) are worthwhile. You likely want either a 2 part epoxy or polyurea. The advantage of polyurea is that it's significantly more flexible (about 98% more flexible), more abrasion resistant than epoxies, and uv-stable. That is, if your floor moves, the epoxy will crack. The polyurea will not. Epoxy will yellow with time, Polyurea will not. Most epoxy companies offer 2-part polyurea or polyurethane topcoats if you want uv stability. It also produces a usable floor very quickly (IE 4 hours until you can move stuff back in at 70F). The disadvantage is the pot life. Usually 20-30 minutes. The one-parts fix the pot life issue, but like I said, the are *very* new (rock solid floors makes one, they are division of an industrial floor coating operation named citadel floors). Coating wise, other than cost, there are no advantages to epoxy over polyurea, assuming both are installed properly (once you get into hybrid epoxies or such it is hard to give a comparison). There are less installers and product lines for DIY polyurea. I had a polyurea floor installed in my shop. With flakes and at 65 mil, it is rated at something like 10,000psi. To put it in perspective, i knocked a small box containing an jointer head (IE 40+lbs) from 15 feet high onto it, it hit right on its corner, and it didn't even leave a mark. I was fairly impressed.

2. You want flakes, they provide compressive strength. They are on top of the base coating, but in almost all cases under a top coating. The borg stuff has no top coating, IIRC. If you want to do this right, look at places like rock solid floors (polyurea), wolverine coatings (epoxy), and epoxy-coat (epoxy :-) ). These are representative of DIY, both high end and medium end. If cost is no object, do a 65 mil floor (this is standard industrial, it's 1/16th of an inch) or 125 mil floor. If you do a 25 mil floor, you may have to add a little bit of non-slip grit, but not much. 25 mil may be bumpy enough already (depends how rough the surface is), but 65 mil will likely be completely smooth, and both epoxy and polyurea are *slippery when wet*.

Note, if you are like me, and drop a lot of screw and other assorted silver colored things on the floor, don't get a gray floor. I went with Tan. I have since never lost a small screw or washer

3. For both epoxy and polyurea, preparation is incredibly important, usually more important than product choice (once you get into the mid-high end of products). First you will want to remove any contaminants (oil, grease, etc). Acid wash will not do this. Then you are going to want to use a concrete grinder to etch the floor, not an acid wash (it can be done with acid wash, it usually works, and it's usually cheaper, but if you want to do it right, grinding is the "right" way, because it guarantees the right surface finish. Mechanical grinding also helps ensure contaminant removal in a way acid doesn't). Make sure you get the dust collector that goes with it . They can be rented fairly cheaply, about 60 bucks a day. It won't take you a day, unless the floor is completely uneven. Then you want to patch any spalling or cracks (all of these companies have fast set material made specifically to be a patching material for cracked/spalled/etc concrete that can be be applied over in < 1 hour). Once done you could apply immediately. With a polyurea floor, you could do foot traffic in usually 4 hours, drive vehicles on it in 24 (this stuff gets used for garages). Epoxy is usually 24 hours to foot traffic, 48-72 hours to vehicle traffic.

One thing to note: No DIY epoxy kit i'm aware of can be applied at *surface* temperatures lower than ~55 degrees. Since the concrete you speak of is on the ground, it will be probably 5-10 degrees below ambient, at least. Most polyureas can be applied down to 0 degrees. Both have drying times *heavily* affected by temperature. I don't remember the exact curves, but it's something like with epoxy at 90 degrees you could may be able to do vehicle traffic in 12 hours, where as at 60 degrees it may take 8 days.
Polyurea is not as affected on the low end, but is just as affected on the high end (IE at 100 degrees you may be able to do vehicle traffic in an hour or something ridiculous)

Without trying to break the rules here, there are forums, mostly garage forums, that have dedicated areas on flooring that you may want to look at.

For the square footage you are looking at, you could probably have an epoxy or polyurea floor professionally installed for 3-5k. The professionals are usually dealing directly with coating companies, and often will have access to stuff you won't (IE they may have someone custom make a hybrid epoxy for them that has much nicer properties, or will have access to the professional, requires more training to install but better versions of coatings).

Thickness of flooring is directly going to dictate cost if you DIY. DIY is probably 1k-1.5k for a 25 mil floor, 500-750 for a 12 mil floor, etc.

Sorry if this is all too much info. I did a very large amount of research before i did the floor in my shop, and this is likely the only time I will ever get to use it

[Thom Sturgill]

Not too much info, but discouraging. I think having it done professionally is way out of the price range. I was looking at stricktly DIY.

[Phil Thien]

I would go over to the garageforums and read some of the stuff in the flooring forum.

When I was researching before doing my basement, I was stunned by the # of people at garageforums that had problems w/ 2-part epoxy products.

The more expensive, the more problems (it seems). While the Rustoleum kits sold at home improvement stores are certainly less durable, they do appear to provide a greater chance of success of installation. These are just my observations from reading, nothing scientific.

For my basement, I went with a "one-part epoxy." I suspect it is nothing more than a good floor paint with some ground-up epoxy put in the can (if even that) so they can say "epoxy" in the name, but I've been very happy with the results about a year later:

http://www.ugl.com/drylokMasonry/flo...rPaints/e1.php

Things would be different if I was driving on this floor, I think. But for woodworking shop traffic, well, it still looks brand-new.

[Al Burton]

Phil is right, read up over at garagejournal there is good info, probably more in depth than you care to read. I think you will be fine with a two part epoxy and the sprinkles are nice for both color and making it non slip. You can even add on a clear coat. The real key is preping the floor. I have etched two floors and all acid isn't equal. Renting a diamond grinder they say is the best way to prepare a floor but I wasn't desperate enough to go that route and all is well so far.

My shop is a 30x40 pole barn and I took the cheaper route and used acrylic paint/stain. It is holding up better than expected but even the Rustoleum or Quikcrete two part epoxy is far superior. Let me throw in acid etching as well. I love the look and you see it in a lot of big stores these days but if you are going to go that route you need to seal it, the etching stain just changes the color and needs a sealer or better yet a clear epoxy coat. Good luck and happy reading.

[ben searight]

You're thinking way too much. Spending 3-5K on floor paint for a 600 SF shop is insane. I assume you won't be driving a forklift on it or moving pallets of material, you just need it sealed to make it easier to sweep. I have a similar sized shop, I used the Rustoleum kits from the Borg and it works well for a woodshop. It probably wouldn't hold up to industrial type abuse but I haven't had any chipping or other issues yet. As far as surface prep, I used degreaser on a couple of oil spots and pressure washed the entire floor, then used the included etching solution (citrus based, but you could use muriatic acid as well) and pressure washed it again. It is slippery when you get some saw dust on top of it so you might think about adding some non-slip grit. I did a 750SF shop for about $300. Ft. Pierce is pretty warm, you should be able to walk on it the next day.

[Daniel Berlin]

I would go over to the garageforums and read some of the stuff in the flooring forum.

When I was researching before doing my basement, I was stunned by the # of people at garageforums that had problems w/ 2-part epoxy products.

The more expensive, the more problems (it seems). While the Rustoleum kits sold at home improvement stores are certainly less durable, they do appear to provide a greater chance of success of installation. These are just my observations from reading, nothing scientific.

For my basement, I went with a "one-part epoxy." I suspect it is nothing more than a good floor paint with some ground-up epoxy put in the can (if even that) so they can say "epoxy" in the name, but I've been very happy with the results about a year later:

http://www.ugl.com/drylokMasonry/flo...rPaints/e1.php

Things would be different if I was driving on this floor, I think. But for woodworking shop traffic, well, it still looks brand-new.

The reason they have trouble is because surface prep requires hard work, and most people don't want to put in the effort.
Most of the rustoleum stuff is really just a very low solids paint with ground up epoxy, as you suspect. This is why it is easier, because paint bonds chemically to a lot of stuff, and epoxy doesn't.

Note: I have a smaller shop, and I move the large and heavy machines around *constantly*.

[Daniel Berlin]

You're thinking way too much. Spending 3-5K on floor paint for a 600 SF shop is insane. I assume you won't be driving a forklift on it or moving pallets of material, you just need it sealed to make it easier to sweep. I have a similar sized shop, I used the Rustoleum kits from the Borg and it works well for a woodshop. It probably wouldn't hold up to industrial type abuse but I haven't had any chipping or other issues yet. As far as surface prep, I used degreaser on a couple of oil spots and pressure washed the entire floor, then used the included etching solution (citrus based, but you could use muriatic acid as well) and pressure washed it again. It is slippery when you get some saw dust on top of it so you might think about adding some non-slip grit. I did a 750SF shop for about $300. Ft. Pierce is pretty warm, you should be able to walk on it the next day.

Out of curiosity, how long have you had it installed?
Most people don't start to see peeling/other surface prep failures for about 3 years.

[Chris Harper]

I agree with Daniel's response. When you read up on polyurea over on the Garage Journal forums be sure to read up on the issues and learning curve associated with DIY 2K polyurea. The stuff flashes off very quickly and is generally considered more difficult to apply than epoxy. But with that said, I do think polyurea is a better choice than epoxy.

The 1K polyurea product is very intriguing. It's just a moisture cure polyurea formulated for garage floors so the chemistry isn't that new but the application is. At least to my understanding.

If you do go with epoxy stick with the 100% solids systems or the solvent based systems. I gather the "waterborne" epoxies aren't quite as good. On that same note, if you read about somebody with a ten year old Rustoleum floor that is still in good shape understand that it may have been an older solvent based system. Five years ago I could find both in my area. Now I only see waterborne epoxies. I saw one waterborne epoxy that was 28% solids and still priced pretty high.

Regarding cost, I think the professional prices Daniel mentioned were for a thicker floor. My quick math tells me that a 600 sq. ft. floor with a 125 mil coating of a 100% solids product would be 50 gallons after accounting for waste. 65 mil would be about half that, and so on and so on. So I don't think the 3-5k was that far off and maybe even a bit low.

Most DIY jobs don't approach anywhere near 65 mils from what I understand.

Read the thread on my phone. Sorry if I'm repeating anything.

[john lampros]

Also available are one and 2 part urethane, they hold up equally well. I work on epoxied floors and have never had a slip problem. I can see that being an issue if it gets wet maybe. however its a lot harder to sweep up dust on a finish that has sand added. If your going to add sand do it on the first coat and do it sparingly and do a second coat over it. sand on the top coat has a tendency to get 'knocked off" from daily use. The grittier my floors get the harder it is to sweep so Its time for a new coat ( its been 14 years). finishes designed for concrete floors have a "slip rating". Ventilate it well as these fumes are heavy and will paitently sit there waiting for an ignition source. have fun, I'm jealous. john.

[Jeff Monson]

I like the u-coat system, its a 2 part epoxy. Mine has held up very well over the last few years. No chipping at all and I have dropped and dragged some heavy items on it. They have a nice project estimator on their website also with different color and flake options.

[Thom Sturgill]

Just to make things clear, the pole barn has large doors, 2 - 6' x 12' doors. One will be 'permanently' closed once tools are installed and the tools probably will not have to move more than once or twice. ( LOL ) And no vehicle traffic.

I will be doing primarily wood turning (I do have all the major WW tools though) while my wife will be doing ceramics - Kiln is outside in a separate structure. Since turning creates major piles of shavings that are impractical to try to catch, I need something that is easy to sweep (and mop) and on which anti-fatigue mats will not slip too easily. Do to moving schedules, I do not want to spend too much time in prep work (1 day prep, 1 day coating + 1 day drying) and the budget is in the low to mid hundreds, BORG Rustoleum 2 part would be $160 + cleaning, rollers,etc - about $300 total - I could go maybe $500.

[Will Rowland]

I went with the Wolverine epoxy 2 years ago (sold by AlphaGarage) for my 640 sq ft shop. All materials, including prep and application stuff, were around $1300. This is for a "3-layer" system with a bonding agent, 100% solids epoxy, and a clear top coat.

The prep/application process was a lot of work, and the learning curve was very steep (read everything you can on GarageJournal), but the finished result is amazing. It is unbelievably durable. If I drop a hammer on it, the hammer just bounces up without a mark on the floor. Some others I know that used the cheaper BORG stuff, and even a few that paid one of these franchise operations to epoxy their garage, had lifting within a year.

The one big mistake I made was underestimating how slippery the finished product would be. This is somewhat of a result of using the 100% solids product (I believe at 30 mils total)...it levels out over all imperfections so the surface is glass smooth.

If my garage's only purpose was to park a show car in it, it would have been fine. But for a high-use area, especially around large power tools, it became simply too slick once it got any kind of liquid on it. After a couple weeks, and before I moved everything back in, I put down another layer of the clear coat ("Endurashield") with the Wolverine anti-slip additive in it. Doesn't look quite as good as the clear-coat only floor, but completely safe to work on now.

[Daniel Berlin]

Most DIY jobs don't approach anywhere near 65 mils from what I understand.

Completely true. He said "cost difference is not an issue", so i assumed (apparently wrongly) he didn't care much about cost

[Daniel Berlin]

Just to make things clear, the pole barn has large doors, 2 - 6' x 12' doors. One will be 'permanently' closed once tools are installed and the tools probably will not have to move more than once or twice. ( LOL ) And no vehicle traffic.

I will be doing primarily wood turning (I do have all the major WW tools though) while my wife will be doing ceramics - Kiln is outside in a separate structure. Since turning creates major piles of shavings that are impractical to try to catch, I need something that is easy to sweep (and mop) and on which anti-fatigue mats will not slip too easily. Do to moving schedules, I do not want to spend too much time in prep work (1 day prep, 1 day coating + 1 day drying) and the budget is in the low to mid hundreds, BORG Rustoleum 2 part would be $160 + cleaning, rollers,etc - about $300 total - I could go maybe $500.

If you aren't moving stuff around, and just want it sealed, as the other guy said, just use a concrete paint like drylok or something be done with it. The surface will look like crap in a few years, but not any worse than concrete, and will still be functional. The problem with cheaper epoxies are lifting and other issues. Epoxy is mainly a mechanical bond, so if the surface is not perfectly prepared, and the epoxy is not very well formulated, it will peel off.
If it's already smooth, and you just want to make it hard and dustproof, either paint it or use a concrete densifier and call it a day.