water based stains

[kenneth fleming]

What is everyone using for waterbased stains out there ? Learning the ropes with it and finding the quick dry time can be a huge challenge...Others using externders for open time ? Spraying it on for quicker transport and wiping it off ? How are you handling box interiors with overlapping, drips, etc ? Or do you find that maybe solvent based wins this discussion ?

Thanks
Ken

[David Giles]

Some of the tricks for using water based dyes are:
1. Raise the grain with water and sand back. Do it twice with some woods.
2. Generously wipe on the water based dye. Not flooding, but keep the surface wet to avoid streaks.
3. Wipe off with a dry paper towel or rag. The damp towel blends the dye uniformly across the surface.

Now cut to length and glue up.

Prefinishing is a whole other story that I'm trying.

[kenneth fleming]

Yes, would love to prefinish but just not always in the cards...The hardest parts I find is when I have to go into cases with veneers as just dries too quick for the ammount of time I need to be in that section...All of your comments I already practice....just the larger and more complicated pieces with challenging transistion sections as to where to end that section of staining is the hardest part...

[David Giles]

In that case, I'll add to my general rules of thumb. Sooner or later, someone knowledgeable will chime in.

4. Prefinish all inside faces including dye and film finish. Never touch the inside of the case once it is assembled. Or learn to love unfinished wood on the inside.
5. Ditto for any and all drawers. Now the finish interferes with the glue at the corners. I'll sacrifice strength to avoid finishing the drawer insides. Plus I use undermount slides which mount on the 1/2" floor so side strength is a not as critical as other drawer options.
6. Cut to final width, finish, then cut to length. Then mortise and tenon. Morticepal and loose tenons are the way to go to avoid getting finish on critical gluing surfaces. This change in workflow feels very weird the first time. On the second project, it became "normal" to go from the planer to the sander followed by dye. There were a bunch of non-dimensioned, dyed boards waiting for final assembly.
7. Use reveals and avoid flush surfaces. Flush surfaces require touchup sanding or planing which prevents prefinishing. An 1/8" reveal allows to finished surfaces to mate with imperceptible mismatches. My goal for the next project is "no flush surfaces".

When you say "stain", do you mean "dye"? I wasn't aware of any water based stains.

[Rich Engelhardt]

When you say "stain", do you mean "dye"? I wasn't aware of any water based stains.

MinWax makes a waterborne stain.

I used it once. That was plenty enough to make me wish I hadn't.
I used a light golden oak on the birch plywood I used to make my router table.
It serves as a constant reminder of my mistake.
It has a muddy look to it that just screams at me every time I look at it.

Everyone else that's seen it thinks it looks real nice.

I hate it.

[Ken Ketcham]

I have been spraying stains by using Target Coating's EM1000 water based sealer tinted with transtint coloring. There is a post in the Target Forums by Jeff Weiss regarding how to use EM1000 here: http://www.targetcoatings.com/forum/...+sealer+update

The trick I have found is to spray lightly -- there will be no blotching and no need to wipe or worrying about drying time. If the stain isn't dark enough, I either add more coats of stain or add the same coloring to my finish (I'm using mostly EM6000 water based laquer) and spray enough coats to get the desired coloring. The grain and finish turn out spectacular.

Ken

[Howard Acheson]

Are you using water based pigment stains or are you talking about water based dye stains. They are totally different animals. Water based stains from Minwax and General Finishes are pigment stains. They are fairly difficult to work with.

[kenneth fleming]

I'm actually using the new RTM stain system from General finishes. It is a pigment stain that contains dyes as well (I am told)...I don't have an issue with the colors and look, but rather the application with respect to the fast dry time. In just completing a 6' bar that had no break point, it was nearly impossible to keep a wet edge. I'm finding that be it difficult enough to build things, that when using water based color "stains" that one almost has to change the whole construction project and really consider prefinish and even unwanted design portions. I am planning on trying the extenders for longer open time and will look to spray and wipe to have a much fast transport medium...but I still see issues and having to do in sections, tape off, and maybe even sanding some of the overspray before completing other area's..
I have spoke to Jeff at Target and currently I have used their 1000, 3000, 6000, 6500, 9000 and all with good results. He has stated to me the Target stains have longer open time than some others because of the linseed base... As far as tinting to get a pretty rich stain color, I feel that there are some limits as to how deep I can get that color. I wish I felt differently as that would a great solution.

Overall, not sure if I am going to do a combination of the RTM system and go back to solvent base stains and just wipe them on. I don't think anyone would feel that doing a large project like I did or an open set of continous wall panel bookcases would be easy with water based stains. One consideration is to add a second coat to help even things out and / or toner in the EM1000 after the fact, as have played around with the first and will do so on the second in the next few days.

Feedback is appreciated

[tyler mckee]

I just started using waterbased dye, just finished a hall table and was very pleased with he outcome. I mixed up a dark brown dye and sprayed it on a maple table, couple light coats with my cheap HVLP and I had a beautiful blotch free color. I sprayed a couple very light coats of em6000 after that to lock in the dye, had no problems with the water based finish over the dye. I love the flexibility of colors, I can mix any color combination I want from black to pink, and it's dirt cheap. I didn't use transtint, I bought a bunch of different water soluble powders and mix my own.

[Jim Luton]

Hi Kenneth,
I've been using water based stains and dyes in my shop for many years. For stains, I use Target's linseed oil emulsions. I almost always pre-seal with Target amber shellac diluted 25%, then machine sand with 400 abranet. The pre-seal works well for evening out the stain application, and preventing blothchiness. I spray the stain, then wipe off. We do quite large pieces routinely, as large as 4'x8' archtiectural panels, etc. though always with 2 people. One sprays and one wipes. I then seal the stain with full strength amber shellac, though sanding sealers work too. I use Target 6,000 top coats. The spray equipment is Fuji Q3. We ALWAYS pre-finish the interiors of case work and furniture before assembly. The quality of the finish is much better. We tape off all joinery with blue tape before hand.

For dyes, I use Lockwood water base anilines or metal complex dyes. Here, I usually don't pre-seal, as I'm after a deeper, more intense hue, like black, or chinese red. The top coats are as above. I have not yet tried the General finishes RTM line, but may fool around with it.

The one thing with water based finishes, is that you have to be prepared to tune up your colors for warmth. I often will tint the sealers or even the lacquers to achieve an exact hue. some of the colors are weird, but work well in a film finish.

It is always interesting to see what other shops are doing.

Jim Luton, Brooklyn