ADA Sign Question: Spacing between words

[Ross Moshinsky]

I found a nice PDF from Accent Signage specifying all of the various spacing between "letters". It didn't cover the space necessary between the last "letter" of a word and the first "letter" of the next word.

If someone could share, that would be great.

For clarity, here is an example:

Mens Bathroom. How big of a space between the "s" and the "B"?

[Scott Shepherd]

Why would you need to know the space? The conversion software you use to convert it to Grade II braille and it's done.

How are you trying to do it, draw the dots manually?

[Ross Moshinsky]

I grabbed a sample off of Romark because I'm doing some testing on whether we want to start doing ADA signage. Their spacing was wrong. Now I'm trying to find the right numbers.

We don't use Corel so the plugin offered here is of little use to us unless I decide to buy Corel. It's cheaper and easier to draw it myself for the testing.

[Joe Pelonio]

Are you talking about the dots or the actual letters?

http://www.access-board.gov/ada/

[Ross Moshinsky]

Thanks Joe. I had a feeling it was something simple.

I attached what I believe to be 100% ADA complaint file. A lot of the files out there are not 100% ADA complaint. I've found the hole spacing can be off a good amount. I've also found very few examples have the actual raised letters set with the right kerning. The only thing I cannot attest to is the actual ADA translation but I guess none of us really can.

EDIT: As Steve has mentioned below, it's not exactly regulation to type MENS and then have "mens bathroom" below. So what I have here is 95% complaint. Delete the second word in braille and it should be back to regulation.

[Joe Pelonio]

The odd part about it is that despite inspections for compliance on new construction no one ever does a close enough
inspection to verify the accuracy of the dot placement, letter size or spacing. I have seen them reject signs at the wrong height, or with not enough contrast between letters and background but they never check anything else.

[Scott Shepherd]

All the letters should be capital letters too. You shouldn't have a small "s" and a large "B" in my opinion.

The spacing isn't as critical on normal raised text as it is on the braille itself. Keeping in mind, California uses different spacing than everyone else.

Plus, your braille doesn't match your text, which is a violation, in my opinion. You have "MENS" in the text and then the braille says something different "MENS BATHROOM"? The two have to say EXACTLY the same thing, otherwise the point of making it braille means nothing.

[Scott Shepherd]

I think your actual braille text is wrong as well. Are you just typing words in and then converting to a braille font? It has to be Grade II, all should be lower case letters in the braille.

[Ross Moshinsky]

1. They are all lowercase. I typed it in mixed case here because typing in all under-case makes me feel illiterate.

2. The spacing is critical because that's the specifications. Why make a blind person's life harder than it already is by having not to spec spacing? I did everything to California standards simply because its also to the other 49 states standard as well.

3. You're 100% correct that it should match. For whatever reason, I don't think mens is sufficient so I typed it out. If I were going to produce this, I would probably just write "mens". I also have a sign in the shop (a cheap $5 one) that has it written out similarly. I was more thinking about the person using it rather than the regulations.

4. I used a Grade II translator. If it's wrong, there is nothing I can do about it. http://www.mathsisfun.com/braille-translation.html

[Scott Shepherd]

2. The spacing is critical because that's the specifications. Why make a blind person's life harder than it already is by having not to spec spacing? I did everything to California standards simply because its also to the other 49 states standard as well.


4. I used a Grade II translator. If it's wrong, there is nothing I can do about it. http://www.mathsisfun.com/braille-translation.html

Ross, I'm talking about the braille dot spacing and sizing. California uses a DIFFERENT setup than everyone else.

As for your translation, I can't help with that, but the program we paid money for is coming up with something different than your free version, so just know that up front. You may or may not care, but I thought I'd bring it up before you started producing and selling signs that you might have to eat one day because they may be incorrect.

I don't know what you typed, so I can't specifically help you troubleshoot the program you used.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Ross, I'm talking about the braille dot spacing and sizing. California uses a DIFFERENT setup than everyone else.

As for your translation, I can't help with that, but the program we paid money for is coming up with something different than your free version, so just know that up front. You may or may not care, but I thought I'd bring it up before you started producing and selling signs that you might have to eat one day because they may be incorrect.

I don't know what you typed, so I can't specifically help you troubleshoot the program you used.

The Lower 49 allow variance in their spacing. California uses standard spacing all the time. No variance. The California standard spacing fits within the variance the lower 49 allow.

I typed in "mens bathroom". That's what it came up with. Like with all translators, I'm sure there is some amount of error in all of them. As I said, we're just testing the process and seeing if it's a market we want to enter. If we do want to get involved, we'll spend some money. I have no idea if the paid software will translate anymore accurately but I'll cross my fingers and hope. As far as getting the ADA right, I'm more worried about the user than the inspector. As Joe said, and I expected, most inspectors are most concerned with the look, feel, and install. I very much doubt most can read braille.

[Scott Shepherd]

The Lower 49 allow variance in their spacing. California uses standard spacing all the time. No variance. The California standard spacing fits within the variance the lower 49 allow.

That's a news flash to me. I've been making ADA signs for about 5 years now, I've read the code more times than I care to count, I've spent hours and hours on the phone with the Department of Justice asking questions about it and that's the first time I've ever heard, or seen mentioned, that a state defined code could be substituted for a Federal regulation.

If that's accurate, then that's a new one for me.

[Ross Moshinsky]

I take no credit for this document. This is from Accent Signage. As we all know, they have made themselves the all knowing power on ADA requirements.

Braille Spacing.pdf

If you look at the specs, you'll see that California's standards fits within the same standards for the other 49 states. The only difference is you're allowed a range in the rest of the US while California has very specific guidelines. In the end, it really shouldn't effect anything. The only one spec that is difficult to keep to is the raster height. I'd say it's basically impossible to get every ball exactly .025" raised from the surface. Otherwise, I haven't come across anything that makes California code not work in the other 49 states.