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Thread: Waterstone grits

  1. #16
    No, the Sigma power 6k is perhaps too durable and hard to do much more than it currently does. In talking this over with Chris, I think we would have to start with a stone that's more friable--with a good binder--to even approximate what you've described. But then, stones with weak binders or that are too friable won't achieve those results either.

    Theoretically, place a well prepped blade with small serrations on a stone that more quickly breaks down (like a Suehiro Rika 5K) and then work the slurry from soupy to thick mud, then wipe the stone clean, leave it dry, and make a few last pulls--in this case the grit and binder have broken down to polishing by the time the soup is paste-like, and the stone face is at it's most refined level (which is perhaps much more than 5k, closer to 8k). A few pulls on that moist surface should impart a much better edge than with the slurry since the slurry has potentially varying sizes of grit plus swarf in it. Hence, the better stones probably are too durable to ever simulate what you describe (Shaptons, Sigmas, Choseras, Gesshins, ?) while the older mud binders are perhaps too soft, renewing too much grit to ever find that middle ground of transforming grit into polishing powder. Sounds to me like we've discovered why people follow their high grit stones with the 8k Kitayama, it's the less cutting more polishing stone.

    Please, those with experience and knowledge--speak up and address the errors in my thoughts!!! Gotta learn it sometime

    Archie
    near NOLA

  2. #17
    Archie - I think you'd be surprised in terms of the polishing and the hardness. No matter how hard the stone is, the grit will dull and break if the binder doesn't let it go.

    The fujibato house brand stone isn't as hard as something like a 3k chosera or a shapton, but it's hard enough that the only thing in on the dried surface was compacted surface and a lot of metal swarf.

    I really don't have any idea which part of it is doing the work, but I have done the same thing with a shapton 5k, which I see people dog all the time, but it will create a very sharp and brightly polished edge if allowed to load. I just didn't do it quite so consciously before. I let the stone load as I was finishing my last work with it because I was too lazy to clean it, but I did notice that it was creating a very keen and smooth edge.

    I am starting to realize why a lot of the older wisdom is that good quality natural stones are hard enough such that the "iron flower" (the black swarf) is composed only of metal particles. I think it has to do with versatility. I'm not sure on those hard stones that it's so much the abrasive breaking down, but instead that it too becomes burnished if it's allowed to stay on the surface without being abraded off.

    Give it a rip, see what it does. Just make sure the stone is dry enough such that the black metal swarf stays just where it's cut.

    It kind of chaps my pants a little bit that this kind of stuff isn't discussed a little more with beginners. I do recall some folks saying "learn your stones, you'll get more out of them if you're familiar with them", and I remember having this discussion with derek a while ago, that shaptons will bring up a super bright polish if you let them load at the last second. But it seems like this sort of stuff should be part of every discussion where someone's first question is how to get a better edge without spending too much.

    We are finally making a little new headway, huh? The only thing I can think of where this wouldn't apply is oilstones, that nearly stop cutting when they are totally ignored, and where removing the swarf doesn't refresh them.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Archie England View Post
    Sean, have you used any other waterstones? Archie
    Hi Archie,

    I have always used India, Arkansas stones and an ancient super nice but unfortunately rather skinny green slate stone. Bought the 300, 1200, 6000 King stones a couple of years ago when I couldn't find a nice replacement Arkansas (my original good one died a untimely death). The Kings are available locally and reasonably priced - for me they get an edge (on plain old O1 for the most part) more than sharp enough - if they didn't I wouldn't use them.

    That said for sure there is better and newer stuff out there and if you like experimenting with different stones, etc that is good too. Just not my idea of fun ...

  4. #19
    I made a sketch of micron grit size for a number of standard waterstone sizes. If I jump from 1200-6000, it's a big jump in grit size. I suspect the difference in grit size going from stone to stone on a honing process is not the only indicator to the relative time to remove scratches, but, I think it's one data point of interest.

    waterstone grit sizes.jpg

  5. #20
    Jump in grit size, shape of the cut and aggressiveness of the grit are all things to consider.

    With aluminum oxide, you can make large jumps. With the right technique, you can make large jumps even with slow abrasives.

    With diamonds, it's not out of line to go straight from 10 microns to 1/2 micron - actually, it works quite well and saves time vs. adding an interim size.

    Experience with the stones you're using is the best way to find out what you can and can't get away with.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    Archie - I think you'd be surprised in terms of the polishing and the hardness. No matter how hard the stone is, the grit will dull and break if the binder doesn't let it go.
    I just got home pulled out a 1" chisel and tried this on my sig 1k and sig 6k. Honestly, didn't come to a clear conclusion but my impressions were.

    - It did make a difference on both the 1k stone and the 6k.

    - While the blade wasn't brightly polished off the 1k I would say it worked the edge up closer to the level of 3k (VERY rough guess). Normally I can't shave hair off a 1k, but by working the stone a while I could. Not smoothly, and not popping hair, but a pretty darn sharp edge. Sharp enough to shave SYP end grain farily easily, with only a little bit of fiber seperation. Sharp enough for most woodworking, which off a 1k is pretty cool.

    - The 6k I noticed less of a difference, but even with my normal use it gets an edge that beat my old norton 8k. Its about as good of an edge as I've gotten off the Sig 6k w/o following with a strop or higher grit stone, but it's not a edge I haven't gotten before. While I think I'm a pretty competent sharpener maybe if I were a better at working the stone in this way I would have gotten even better results. Don't know.

    - Ultimately, I found the the time it took me to work the stones after drying them off would have been time better spent on a strop of higher grit stone

    Again, this was just a quick experiment with Daves suggestion, so take my findings with half a grain of salt.

  7. #22
    Well, for my contribution to the experiments, i have but one razor that hasn't been completely sharpened. An unknown razor that just says "sheffield, best steel".

    I put it on the SP 13k, and let the stone dry out. Definitely a bright polish, and with 50 palm strops (about 30 seconds of stropping) it's definitely sharper than the normal sp 13k "wet" edge.

    The only thing that I couldn't do, because it's a razor, is apply the pressure I could with the chisel.

    It could be that the shaptons and the fujibato stone around the 6k level are ideal for this type of thing, who knows? I'll try it with more stones over the near future, but the fujibato stone is near magical with it. When the surface dries out, the stone turns black with a layer of uniform swarf, and instantly goes to polishing, leaving no scratches behind on the edge.

    The kitayama stone will do this, too - pretty well, so I'm pretty sure anyone with a 6k king will have good luck if they work with little pressure and play.

    Chris, certainly stropping is fair game. If the 6k stone has left a wire edge that's weak, by all means getting it off quickly with a palm stropping or with a couple of passes on leather is fair. I'd think the only things out of bounds are something that takes a long time and wouldn't realistically be part of the sharpening process in a shop.

  8. #23
    David, I have been sort of doing this by default with my King 6k and yes when the stone starts to dry off and load up it really polishes the edge. I hadn't really give it a lot of thought until I read your post. With natural stones after you have used one for a while - you often find a real sweet spot on the stone that just gives that extra polish - different mechanism causing the effect but also brought about by using the same tool (in this case a stone) often enough that you work out how to get the best out of it.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post


    The kitayama stone will do this, too - pretty well, so I'm pretty sure anyone with a 6k king will have good luck if they work with little pressure and play.

    Chris, certainly stropping is fair game. If the 6k stone has left a wire edge that's weak, by all means getting it off quickly with a palm stropping or with a couple of passes on leather is fair. I'd think the only things out of bounds are something that takes a long time and wouldn't realistically be part of the sharpening process in a shop.
    The knife guys say this about the Kitayama all the time. Some of say if you follow an 6k or 8k stone with it, it behaves almost like a strop and pushes the edge beyond 12k even though its a technically an 8k. Have you found this to be true? Its stone I've always been curious about, but that's not enough reason for me to drop $75 on it, especially since the next spare cash I have has already been set aside for a Sig 13 . Be curious to know you experience with it (the Kit) though?

    I've never done palm stropping. Will have to give it a go. When I mentioned stropping earlier I was referring to using green stuff, which since really creates a fine hone seemed unfair in terms of the "test results". In real use though, heck yes, its fair game. The Sig 6 followed by green stuff give a wicked sharp edge blade.

  10. #25
    I think you'll find if the edge has a good polish, palm stropping will do as much as green stuff. If the edge is coarse, then the green stuff is a good "cheaty" way to work down some of the grooves, right? I just don't like using it on something that can work back over the edge backwards, but I suppose it isn't going to hurt the edge, and might make it a bit stronger.

    I always liked green stuff on MDF - you can use it like a stone and it makes a super keen edge.

    I wouldn't buy the kitayama if you're getting the SP 13k, for fine work, the SP 13k is a better stone - it does the "very fine" straightforward without tinkering.

    If you use the kitayama straight up (like newly refreshed, etc), the edge isn't as good as a shapton 15k, so all of the talk about fineness is confusing unless it comes with a disclaimer how the stone is used.

    The only thing I use the kityama for is (and this makes no sense, it's just habit) keeping mortise chisels in shape by pulling them across it 5 times after each mortise. Someday, I'll sell it so I can justify trying something new.

    When you palm strop, by the way (and you may already have a method cooked up), just hold the chisel still and flip your hand back and forth over the edge - it doesn't need to be a long stroke kind of event like a leather strop, whatever is there will come off just from bend it back and forth, and leave the last stroke of your palm such that you pull the edge away from the side you're going to cut (i.e., on a BD plane iron, flip your palm on the back of the iron on the last stroke and don't pull the edge back toward you from the bevel side). You'll be shocked how sharp it is with no extra fluff after something like a 6k stone. You can tell when an edge is truly prepared with a fine stone, when it has that level of sharpness on both sides of the bevel no matter how you finish stropping.
    Last edited by David Weaver; 01-31-2012 at 7:34 AM.

  11. #26
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    Cool. Thanks Dave. Will give the palm thing a try. I use green stuff more like a stone than a strop too. I've taken to putting it on piece of thin cardboard that's been glued down to granite. Pull strokes are still best here, but if your careful you can work the blade back and forth like on a stone. It's pretty much the same as using a piece of MDF actually, but I'd don't keep mdf around and when I do the humidity seems to put humps and lumps in it, so the cardboard on granite is better for me.

  12. #27
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    Holy Crap! You weren't kidding with that palm stropping thing. Just went over and grabbed the chisel I had sharpened up yesterday. Honed it a bit on my green stuff. As always very, sharp, shaves hair easily. That palm stropped about 20-30 time. It really smoothed out the edge, ran it up my now patchy leg, and I could feel how much smoother it was cutting. Paired some SYP, and it definitely burnished the end grain to a higher level than usual. Next I'll need to try it coming right of the 6k, w/o going to green stuff.

    Now my wood won't get raiser bumps and ingrown fibers

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Griggs View Post
    Now my wood won't get raiser bumps and ingrown fibers
    haha...the wood will experience no irritation.

    Of course, I don't know what the practical difference may be between a green stuff edge, and a green stuff edge followed by palm stropping, but you can palm strop as you're walking to the bench or thinking about what you're going to do next, so it's not like it takes lot of time.

    The real benefit is pulling the edge (for lack of a better term) on stuff like a 6k stone and getting it to behave like it's much sharper than it is.

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