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Thread: no soak waterstones and coarse stones

  1. #1
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    no soak waterstones and coarse stones

    So once the forum seems to be on the waterstone subject, I'd like to ask pretty much the last pieces of information that I don't see were covered in the comprehensive information of the last posts (great to be part of sawmill creek!) . I was planing on the Sigma power, I love buying from Stu and also they seem amazing, however, I realized that I'd much rather a stone that doesn't need soaking. Rob Cosman use's the Shapton glass, he goes from 1000grit straight to 13000grit, just spritzing them with soup water. I was wondering if these are suited to tough steel as well (HSS plane blades) and if there is any specific disadvantage to using no soak stones. the shapton glass don't seem to clog any more that the sigmas (from watching videos).

    I don't plan on e-v-e-r using a power grinder on blades, call it crazy if you wish, I bought the Norton 220grit but I'm not expecting it to do magic. for example I have a 1/8 inch chisel that I plane to hand ground down to 1/16 of an inch, and I expect to do other work like that, creating blades, establishing bevels and so on... so what would be your recommendation for a grinding stone? I tried an oil one and excuse my language, it's #$#@!. with this stone I AM looking for magic....

    Thanks, I think maybe a few threads should be added to the Neanderthal Wisdom or something.

  2. #2
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    OK, if I were in your shoes, I would buy high quality PSA stick down aluminum oxide paper in 60 grit or 80 grit - and in rolls - like 4 inches wide, and put it on a run of tempered plate glass a couple feet long and use that to grind. It'll be much faster than any stone, and the compromises will be less uninviting than the compromises that exist on stones of coarse grit (be they glazing, messy methods to flatten - since a medium diamond hone isn't going to do anything other than turn a coarse stone into a finer cutting one - softness, whatever a particular stone might have as a problem, cost? that too).

    If you like stu's stones and want to avoid soaking or have temperature constraints that make it so that you can't soak, then buy his 6k and 13k, and buy a shapton pro 1k stone.

    The glasstones are, in my opinion, a bad value. They are what either shapton or whoever shapton's distributor is decides to push over here. Perhaps they weren't aiming them at woodworkers (but instead to kitchen knife folks, who also buy gobs of stones - but I wouldn't want them for that either). 5 millimeters of abrasive for what amounts to a pretty steep price, I don't understand their value proposition.

    Buy the pro 1k stone, it will cut anything just fine, and if it's not doing what you want it to do on HSS, go back to your sandpaper. Just make sure that if you want HSS, it's because you're working something that requires HSS (like cocobolo, etc). For most other stuff that we normally work, HSS has compromises that make it less nice to use in general (in my opinion, but if you're not going to use a power grinder or a belt sander, it will be even more so in your opinion).

    No soak stones might be a little more sensitive to technique, and if you don't experiment a little with them, you might get skidding and loading. If you pay attention, and use them the way they like to be used, that won't be an issue.

    I'm not sure what to tell you about the norton 220. Maybe it will be OK for bevel work at some point, but it is pretty much universally panned. To do what you want to do in making a chisel narrower, you'll want a belt sander or a grinder. Establish your bevels with sandpaper on glass, and on a long run of it - not a 6 inch long patch. You'll see why.

    If you're not sure where to get glass like that, call a glass shop and ask them if they have any glass shelves for cabinets that might be about 8 inches wide and 3 feet long. That'll help you avoid spending a lot of money (a premade cabinet shelf is about 1/5th the price of a piece of custom glass).
    Unleaded tastes a little tangy, supreme is kinda sour, and diesel tastes pretty good.

  3. #3
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    This is a timely thread ..

    I just got a 120x Shapton stone from Stu.. I have some A-2 Plane Irons that I wanted to re-establish a bevel on .. I screwed them up a long time ago and got frustrated trying to fix them up..

    The 120x is like a chainsaw.. It glazes over and needs to be washed half way through an iron but it literally shreds steel of the blade.

    I prefer to do sharpening inside.. watching TV .. etc. Careful with the mess.. lol I don't mind the soaking.. The Sigma 120 actually sucks up water like a sponge .. it gives off bubbles for over a minute..

    I like the idea of a piece of glass with a long strip of paper.. Wide Belt Sander paper would be a neat choice but your probably better with a paper meant for cutting steel.

    If I was going to re-establish bevels on a daily basis, I would probably do a dedicated glass panel, I don't really want to do it that often so the 120x Sigma stone should be fine ..

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    http://www.supergrit.com/products/pr...sleeve-psa.asp

    4 1/2" 10 yard roll of gold is what you want. (no affiliation to the seller)

    I've been through using a lot of paper like this to make infill planes, and there's no paper that really stands up well to hand work. A belt sander doesn't allow you to apply the extreme pressure you can apply grinding something by hand, and the paper lasts much longer on a sander. That's just the way it is whether the paper is white, red, blue, yellow, purple..grinding by hand is hard on it, just like it's hard on the big grit in a sharpening stone.

    But the PSA rolls stick down, don't dub your edges and are easy to replace. You can do dozens of grinds with one stick down of the paper, which equates to hundreds per roll. Belts are OK, but they'd be better if they had adhesive and no seam. If you can get them cheaply (like at a flea market 6x48 belts for a buck per or whatever), you can certainly figure out how to make them work, though.

    You can also do coarse back work on the stick down paper, and cleanup is easily done by a brush or a vacuum (just vacuuming off the swarf).
    Unleaded tastes a little tangy, supreme is kinda sour, and diesel tastes pretty good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    http://www.supergrit.com/products/pr...sleeve-psa.asp

    4 1/2" 10 yard roll of gold is what you want. (no affiliation to the seller)

    I've been through using a lot of paper like this to make infill planes, and there's no paper that really stands up well to hand work. A belt sander doesn't allow you to apply the extreme pressure you can apply grinding something by hand, and the paper lasts much longer on a sander. That's just the way it is whether the paper is white, red, blue, yellow, purple..grinding by hand is hard on it, just like it's hard on the big grit in a sharpening stone.

    But the PSA rolls stick down, don't dub your edges and are easy to replace. You can do dozens of grinds with one stick down of the paper, which equates to hundreds per roll. Belts are OK, but they'd be better if they had adhesive and no seam. If you can get them cheaply (like at a flea market 6x48 belts for a buck per or whatever), you can certainly figure out how to make them work, though.

    You can also do coarse back work on the stick down paper, and cleanup is easily done by a brush or a vacuum (just vacuuming off the swarf).
    A magnet wrapped in paper also works quite well for cleaning dry swarf from sandpaper.

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    Thanks guys... so which grits of paper should I get? 80 + 120? I will probably be great because I can use it to lap planes too.

    about the stones, my reason for not wanting to soak is so that I can just jump to the stone, sharpen and go back to work... I'll hate waiting around for it every time... but if I'd soak, I think the sigmas are a great value no? the 6000 and 13000 don't need soaking?
    about the 5mm.... do you know of anyone who wore one out? I find it hard to believe that shapton would market a seriously bad value product..?
    Last edited by Matthew N. Masail; 01-30-2012 at 3:29 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Vandiver View Post
    A magnet wrapped in paper also works quite well for cleaning dry swarf from sandpaper.
    That's a great tip!

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew N. Masail View Post
    about the stones, my reason for not wanting to soak is so that I can just jump to the stone, sharpen and go back to work... I'll hate waiting around for it every time... but if I'd soak, I think the sigmas are a great value no?
    I respectfully disagree with David about the total value of sandpaper vs. water stones. I've gone to a King Deluxe 300 (and soon to try out Stu's Sigma 400) followed by both the Cho 400, 600 and it's quick, easy, flat, and sharp. Having spent a lot of time on flat plates and sandpaper--but not PSA rolls--my frustrations went away once using stones. The better the stones, the less mess, more speed, flatter and more durable the stone. Orlando tells me that the Gesshin 400 and Sigma 400 are just tops--in fact, better than his Select 240 plus any of the lower grit Shapton Pro stones he formerly used. One thing I do know, the Chosera 400 is much, much slower than either the Gesshin or the Sig 400. And, those who are using the Sigma 400 attest to how flat it stays--it's actually a no-soak stone. By the time you would have taken to work on this blade, all other soaking stones would be ready. Wilbur and David like the Shapton Pro 1000 better than the Sigma power 1000. Since the Shapton Pro is effectively 700 grit, it is a faster stone. But Stu sells a 3F 700 Sigma, too. At this point, it's rather moot. Either will get the job done, and this we know out of experience or by the testimony of others who've got serious skills and knowledge.

    BTW, when restoring edges, I quite often do start at the 300/400 level. I thought that slightly crumpled edges could be reworked at the 3000 level but unfortunated scratched my stone a couple of times trying. And, when rebuilding an edge, I tend to "shift down" from the 1k to my 400 or 600 to speed up the process.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew N. Masail View Post
    I don't plan on e-v-e-r using a power grinder on blades, call it crazy if you wish,.
    Do you mind if I ask why not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew N. Masail View Post
    Thanks guys... so which grits of paper should I get? 80 + 120? I will probably be great because I can use it to lap planes too.

    about the stones, my reason for not wanting to soak is so that I can just jump to the stone, sharpen and go back to work... I'll hate waiting around for it every time... but if I'd soak, I think the sigmas are a great value no?
    about the 5mm.... do you know of anyone who wore one out? I find it hard to believe that shapton would market a seriously bad value product..?

    I would make it 80 and 220. That makes a nicer interval for plane bottoms and sides. Fresh 80 grit with judicious use of pressure will maul a cast iron bench plane (which is what you want). Just keep it clean and don't start going hard core on the pressure until it starts to dull.

    Reading through supergrit's page, maybe I'm wrong about the al ox. They say that their F weight paper at the top stands up better to heavy use. I guess I've just not had any paper stand up to heavy hand use (including some expensive zirconia alumina belts I bought for $12 each thinking that it would be the end all be all due to the description of it), and I remember steve knight saying the same. I like the way al-ox breaks down, it stays pretty sharp.

    So though I may not be sure the mirka gold is the best , i know from experience that it works well.

    As far as the shaptons - people wear out the 1k shapton glasstones regularly. I have one, and when I noticed it wearing fast, I bought a pro 1k, which is 3 times thicker and wears slower (I don't think it releases its grit and breaks down as fast). I think (and I say that because it's my opinion, i've never seen their official stance on it) shapton probably sees the 1k GS as a stone that should be a bit softer so that it cuts faster, and that you won't mind buying one every couple of years of moderate use.

    I don't agree with that. For the higher grits, I guess my thought is really if I told you that I'd sell you two stones that worked similarly, and one would last you 20 years, and another one 6, which would you want? Who knows what a GS will cost in 6 years, but I know I'd rather have the stone that wears longer. I can't think of a decent quality stone that wouldn't outlast it by a lot.

    The glasstones are pretty well liked in terms of actual use. Razor people like them, knife people like them, some woodworkers like them, and if you keep them clean on O1 and A2, they are fast and the abrasive tightly graded and uniform and make a good edge. But the pros are that, too and Stus stones do that without making you pay a lot for a little.

    I think the sigmas are the choice for soaker stones, too. I like besters, and lots of others, but they aren't apparently better than the sigmas (haven't tried the SP 1k and 6k, I only have two sigmas, a 3k sp II and a 13k (the 13k thanks to some of stu's southern (japan) hospitality, and a trade that was heavily in my favor). Stu has confirmed that you can leave them in water just like the old kings, which makes soaking not so much of a pain, and less mud, harder stones and more speed than the old kings.

    I don't know if you can leave a bester in the water, maybe I'll find out if nobody says anything - I have an expendable one. Besters feel like fine coral, and that's offputting to some. I kind of like it. But I'd buy stu's stones if I was looking for soakers.
    Unleaded tastes a little tangy, supreme is kinda sour, and diesel tastes pretty good.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie England View Post
    I respectfully disagree with David about the total value of sandpaper vs. water stones.
    Well, what we're talking about doing with sandpaper is something we want to do a lot faster than a 300 stone. You can get a long run of sandpaper going fast enough to burn an edge if you'd like (but it's obviously easy to avoid, too). In general, I have the same view as Larry does about sharpening - the grinder will do as much as I can get it to do on a western tool and I will have just a sliver of metal to work, along with the back of a tool. I work a lot of rough lumber with western tools (well, OK, nobody who uses only hand tools works "a lot", but I may work 20 bf for a project), and from a board coming off the truck to a board ready for finish, it's exceedingly uncommon (oK, it never happens) that I'd use a 400 stone. If I had a nick too large for a 1000 stone, then a I use a belt sander.

    At any rate, I can make an iron in a guide get a flat grind on a 3 1/2 foot piece of sandpaper just as fast as I can do a hollow with a bench grinder. But I can't come close to that with a 220+ stone. And the side benefit is that I can lap planes on it, rough out marking knives, plane irons, etc. The sandpaper on a long run is purely a brute force speed issue. Much more brute force and speed than, say, 3x glued to a piece of granite (I have done that, too)

    If we lean back a step toward japanese tools where removing a nick and having to work the whole bevel is something that I might have to do, then I include a 400 stone - any decent 400 stone, as long as that includes something that can scuff them rough enough ( a 400 diamond plate doesn't do it on the chosera, it makes a chosera work like a 600 stone ). But even then, I screwed something up if I have to go back to the 400 stone. I bulled a plane into something I shouldn't have, or bought an inferior tool.

    I'm not sure which I'd like better, the shapton 1k or the SP - I haven't tried the SP 1k. I do like the shapton, though.
    Last edited by David Weaver; 01-30-2012 at 3:57 PM.
    Unleaded tastes a little tangy, supreme is kinda sour, and diesel tastes pretty good.

  12. #12
    Yep, the Bester 1200 can perma-soak and works terrifically. That said, it's just less bang all around than the Sigma 1k. The Sigma is superior in how fast it cuts and how well it polishes; so, I use the Bester as my junk stone, especially for sharping knives. The Bester 1200 is a coarser stone and leaves a grabbier edge than the Sigma 1000. Again, that's good for kitchen knives. I've also found that knife sharpening can really eat up the edge of a stone. In use, it's not that messy, flattens well and quickly, and is easy to pull out and re-use quickly. At $40-45, it's not a true deal since it's about 75-80% of the value compared to the Sigma 1k (appro $50 before shipping). Heads up, I'd pick the Sigma 1k any day of the week at the current prices. The only stone that challenges my Sigma 1k is the Chosera 1k, which I bought for about 1/2 price. Otherwise, the Sigma represents all the values (just a little less hard, little easier to dish, uses up a little faster) at nearly 50% of the Cho's cost. If money's no object, the Choseras are great stones. At the 5-6k level, I'd still switch to Sigma powers (not the select IIs).

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joshua Pierce View Post
    Do you mind if I ask why not?
    because I'm stupid.... seriously, I have a crazy fetish (not really the right word here...) to doing things by hand. I hate the fact that I can't grind by hand... I mean, I understand all the responses here but how hard can it be to grind down metal.... I'd prefer a stone simply because sandpaper prices add up.... and I don't have room currently for a huge piece of glass or granit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew N. Masail View Post
    because I'm stupid.... seriously, I have a crazy fetish (not really the right word here...) to doing things by hand. I hate the fact that I can't grind by hand... I mean, I understand all the responses here but how hard can it be to grind down metal.... I'd prefer a stone simply because sandpaper prices add up.... and I don't have room currently for a huge piece of glass or granit
    Would a hand-powered grinder be out of the question, then? Something like:

    GrindingWheel-180621457.jpg
    It might help you with both the space issue and the hand-work desire.


    daniel
    Not all chemicals are bad. Without hydrogen or oxygen, for example, there would be no way to make water, a vital ingredient in beer.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    If you're not sure where to get glass like that, call a glass shop and ask them if they have any glass shelves for cabinets that might be about 8 inches wide and 3 feet long. That'll help you avoid spending a lot of money (a premade cabinet shelf is about 1/5th the price of a piece of custom glass).
    Another place to check is one of the granite counter top places. Some of them want an arm and a leg for a little piece but I've been to some that are happy to get rid of cut-offs. I have 3"x25" and 4"x39", both are 1 1/4" thick. Both free. And you are correct about blades getting HOT with the sand paper.
    Paul


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