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Thread: Japanese Chissels

  1. #1

    Japanese Chissels

    Finally decided to get some "nice" chissels to replace the blue Marples that I have. My Japanese Woodworker catalog came in today and I started to browse. Came across the "nice" chissels and I was floored. They start around $200+. Now, I'm no poor guy but that even felt to me. Are those chissels really that good? Does the fact that some guy (no offense meant to him) hand folded the steel, forged and tempered it make the chissel so much better that one could charge that kind of $$. I'm thinking of getting just one to take a looksie.
    Jim

  2. #2
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    Hi Jim,

    I had that problem too. I bought a set of Kumagoro's from Highland Hardware. They are a little shorter than some but seem to work quite well.

    http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com...S&Category=260

  3. #3
    Jim, there's a lot of labor involved with making Japanese chisels little of which makes them "worth more" in my opinion. On the plus side they are very hard and maintain an edge for a long time, much longer than any western chisel I have used. The down side is they do that at the expense of being brittle and harder to sharpen. I tried a couple and just don't like using them for bench chisels because I would have had to change the way I work to preserve the edge. I do like the paring chisels they sell as dovetail chisels because they have a triangular back which makes it easy to get into dovetails.

    I'm wondering if the LN chisels will give the Japanese chisels a run for their money since they hold an edge a long time and don't seem to be as brittle. I guess only time will tell on that issue. I ordered a couple to try, but they are backordered until the middle of April. I can't wait to try them.
    Dennis

  4. #4
    Forgot to mention. If you are going to buy one or two to try, make sure they are good ones so you get a good comparison.
    Dennis

  5. #5
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    I bought a set of the LN and like them....I have several Japanese and altough they are good, I perfer the LN
    "All great work starts with love .... then it is no longer work"

  6. #6
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    Jim, I've discovered I don't really need bench chisels since I've purchased the speciality paring and mortising chisels, most of which are Japanese. What's more, I don't need sets of chisels, only the sizes I actually use. My favorites are Tasai from Hiraide (japanesetools.com) and Funahiro from Hida (hidatool.com), but there are many other great makers, such as Fujihiro (by Imai) and some other Imai sold by Misugi. I bought a set of 12 bench chisels from Woodcraft (I think these are Iyori, but not sure), which I never use. Instead, I go to a set of 6 Two Cherries bench chisels, rarely. I think it would be very hard to beat the good Japanese paring chisels. Oh, yes, and don't waste money on what's called Mokume. The etching adds nothing to performance and isn't even done as well these days.

    Now there are also some great western mortising chisels, such as PS&W, Witherby, Swan, etc., which are only available used. Also, Joel at ToolsForWoodworking is about ready to sell some new mortising chisels from Iles that he and Chris Swarz (sp?) say are fantastic. And for carving, a whole different issue, have quite a mix, but prefer Dastra and Addis.

    Pam

  7. #7
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    Well Pam really sounds like she knows her stuff. I like chisels and have been thinking about the Japanese chisels myself. But ask yourself if you have ever been to a woodworking show that sells Japanese chisels that they weren't spending the whole day sharpening them??

  8. #8

    what i have found...

    i too am looking at u[pgrading my marples to something better...here are my thoughts as i narrow down on my purchase:

    Japanese chisels
    I really like the way they feel in the hand, the look of the tool....seems like a real handmade tool for a hobby that is mostly using the hands...some of the other chisels out there do look like they are just cookie cutter made...i guess the jap. tools have character (this is why i will discuss Stanley 750s)

    you can get a cheaper set like those mentioned above...or even cheaper at grizzly for $129...however they are machine made japanese chisels...they do look nice, and typical for a low cost entry into this type....however...i think that by spending $129 i would just be getting the 'marples' of the japanese chisel market.

    if i i looked athe price ranges and various makers available, and think i would get the Iroroi bevel edge bench chisels from www.toolsforworkingwood.com as a good compromise...they are hand made and reasonable at ~$330 for a 12 chisel set....one thing that holds me back is how they perform in hard wood...i work in maple, qsawn white oak and cherry...i would loove to hear more about how users of japanese chisels deal with this...jchisels traditionaly are used on softer woods...i mention this because with the harder rockwell on the blades 61-64 they could/might/do chip easier

    Lie Nielson
    have read many times that they are the best western chisel out there A2 cryogenic steel, uses the Stanley 750 design, LN quality....BUT $%) PER CHISEL???? I just don't see the VALUE! A2 steel will be a little harder to sharpen, i have read that some have gone to diamon stones to sharpen or added a squeeze of diamond paste to an oil stone and get good reasults...the steel/chisels are known for keeping an edge much longer than typical marples or even better chisels like two cherries/hirsch

    BUT $50 PER CHISEL?? Well you get a brand new chisel, LN quality, LN brag-ability, choiice of rosewood or standard hornbeam (ironwood handles)...and i guess you could return them if they don't perform as expected...BTW i got a set of the LN in my hand and they are so light....for me almost freakishly light...maybe the A2 steel, maybe because the marples i use just have more steel...anyway they do seem lighter than a 'standard' chisel when first pick them up...they feel great in the hand

    Stanley 750
    why not look at the standard that LN used for the design of their chisel...it is a good design, feels good in the hand....but you will have search to get a set...I believe the steel is as good or better than the best non-LN western chisels like two cherries/hirsch or others....some say you can run across them for 5-10 at flea markets...or search and wait on ebay for 20-25 per chisel...though recently they are going for 30-40/chisel...the last 5 sets that i have seen being sold have gone for about 40-44 per chisel...and some of these were not even sets, but rather a collection....so....it is possible to put together a set much cheaper or a little cheaper than the LN...let's say that they will run you $30/chisel higher for a more common set and better examples...lower if you are lucky at a flea market garage sale...for me ebay is becoming a freak show in pricing, and some collectors are turning more to chisels so YMMV

    Other possibilities:

    Two CHerries/Hirsch
    same blade, same factory...different handles....if i didn';t go japanese, or the LN/750 route then these would be my first choice as far as a quality blade...the sizing of the chisel is larger than LN/750, more like marples...but i have read repeatedly that folks like the steel, and they do keep a good edge longer...definately a step up from marples, but likely not at the good japanese chisel/LN level...likely similar to old Stanley 750

    Ashley Iles American pattern bench chisels
    I believe they are also from toolsforworkingwood.com...i like the sizing of the chisels, and understand the steel is good, maybe even very good, but there is not a lot of data on the net about them

    Right now if sets of these chisels were laid in front of me at the pricing i suspect i would:

    - first get a set of stanley 750 chisels at least 8, maybe 10, 12 if there was a super deal...i am a sucker for old tools, and they feel good, with good steel...I figure $30/chisel
    - TFWW Iyoroi bevel edge bench chisels...get a 12 chisel set for $330 (27.5/chisel)
    - Two Cherries/Hirsch

    The LN are just overpriced right now for the work i do...5 chisel set for 250 or 12 chisel set for 330...hmmmm again, this comes back to the fact that I just can't see the added value....bring the price down to $40/chisle and i might be all over them....the other bother is the delay in getting them and the limited sizes available

    hope that helps...I am eagerly reading posts on chisels and look forward to info and background...BTW spend some time at woodcentral, woodnet, and the sawmillcreek forum search pages...plug in the word chisel and you will get a lot of reading to help...
    Stephen
    http://www.dalfollo-daley.com

  9. #9
    Stephen, I think Pam gave good advice about buying only the chisels you need instead of a set. I have found that I need smaller increments in the narrower chisels, but not with the wider ones. I like to have a 1/8" and a 1/4", but need only a 1" and 1 1/2". That will bring the price of those Irori's down considerably.
    Dennis

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Pam Niedermayer
    I bought a set of 12 bench chisels from Woodcraft (I think these are Iyori, but not sure), which I never use.

    Pam
    Why do you not use them?? are the very good j .chisels you have so much better? or maybe because now you have the j. chisels purchased specially for a function?

    thanks for any feedback.
    Stephen
    http://www.dalfollo-daley.com

  11. #11
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    I have a fine set of LN I use oly for fine joinery...I have a regular set of Swedish Bench chisels for regular tasks along with some individual favorites including some Japanese.. I have many old not so great chisels for rough work. I have an old set of Stanley 720's for paring and general bench work.As you spend time woodworking it is easy to collect chisels....your favorites for each special task will surface...some don't get used that much. The weight size and balance is important especially for finer joinery....these I spend more time sharpening and take much better care of.....I still have a set of Blue Marples and they are very good general shop chisels...I still use them
    "All great work starts with love .... then it is no longer work"

  12. #12
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    I might beat Bob in responding since I haven't seen him posting lately... but Pam has a good handle on the J-chisel info .. they are nice and are outstanding tools. However I am an old-school old tool kind of guy. I collect chisels. Go on Ebay or around to some flea markets and get your self some PS&W, Witherby, GI, Dunlop, Swan, Stanley, etc.. chisels .. clean them up and sharpen them. They will be so much better than anything you are used too you will not notice they aren't costing you 75-200$ each. I like the Stanley 750's a lot but like the Stanley Everlasts (though they will cost a premium for good ones) better. Witherby's might even be better than 750's but they all are about the same after the Everlasts.

    Any good socket chisels from 1940 or older will be a great improvement over what you've got... plus at the prices you can find if you are willing to do some rehab work you can afford to take a set and make them skew chisels for parring, etc... and with all the money you save plus the fun of rehabbing them you can gloat with tons of pics!

    Best of all, if you don't tell it -- the wood really won't know the difference
    Mike-in-Michigan (Richland that is) <br> "We never lack opportunity, the trouble is many don't recognize an opportunity when they see it, mostly because it usually comes dressed in work clothes...."

  13. #13
    My Japanese Woodworker catalog came in today and I started to browse. Came across the "nice" chissels and I was floored. They start around $200+. Now, I'm no poor guy but that even felt to me. Are those chissels really that good?
    I don't think so.

    Fine steel...but brittle...but drop one on a hard floor or knock one off the scaffolding onto the gravel and you'll have one heck of a chip to grind out. I don't like the short lengths, either....harder to keep plumb and consequently a but slower to use.

    Since you already have a user set why not buy some onsey-twoseys in the sizes you need and see which ones you like best?

    It's only been recently that I've upgraded to complete sets of fine old chisels....I used an inexpensive set of Footprints and a few Japanese mortise chisels for decades.

    But not one of my "fine old" chisel sets actually matches except for my rehandling and refinishing....I have every old prewar maker imaginable, and they are difficult to distinguish in quality as they are all generally excellent.







    For me to pick a favorite would be a head scratcher between Witherby, Swan, PS&W, old Greenlee or New Haven Edge. Stanley'd come in the next group down.
    Last edited by Bob Smalser; 03-19-2005 at 6:51 PM.
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  14. #14
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    Jim

    If you are keen on Japanese chisels, then Pam's advice is excellent. I have been using their bench chisels for some years, and really enjoy their sweet balance in the hand, and the sharp, durable edges they hold. But recently I bought a few Japanese dovetail chisels (Matsumura), which are fairly inexpensive, and I can imagine that these could well do all that the bench chisels could do as well.

    I imagine that the professional woodworker will have a different take on chisels compared to an enthusiastic amateur like myself. This could come down to durable and usable verses fun and what-the-hell. In comparison to other hand tools, chisels are relatively cheap items. I really enjoy using them since they require a more immediate involvement. So I have a few "sets" of chisels, all built up over time, costing a little at a time, and now probably worth a lot more than I paid (in other words, these collections sound grander than they really are). In addition to a set of Iyoroi bench chisels, I have:

    Witherbys: The classic American chisel. This has got to be the toughest steel out there. If I had to choose one chisel for durability, it would be a Witherby. They get sharp and stay sharp a long time. The down side is that the shoulders are thicker than desired for paring inside dovetails.

    A E Bergs: The ultimate paring chisel. These highly desirable and collectable Swedish chisels are light and the blades are thin. I have them sharpened at 20 degrees and they excell at paring and dovetails. Good steel but not as tough as either the Japanese or Witherbys.

    Others include: a set of Nooitgedagt bench chisels (amazing value for money on eBay some years ago) which are used for rough work, and a large assortment of Japanese, Ward, Sorby and Marples vintage mortice chisels, and Witherby Mortice and Sash Mortice chisles.

    They are fun.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  15. #15
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    I'm no expert & am now totally confused sheesh.

    I think for my clumsiness I'll stick with my Buck/Ace Hardware Chisels they seem to hold an edge pretty good. If it were not for anti fatigue mats no chisel in my shop would survive. As a quick project I am making a lidded box to hold my chisels & protect them so they stay sharp.

    I'll pick up a couple more & make some skewed chisels & maybe a Marpels 1/8". We don't have very many flee markets here & I don't do E-bay.

    I was looking in the Grizzly catalog at the $129.00 set of Japanese chisels & or the $49.95 set of 6 Irwin?Marples chisels.

    Will the wood know the difference or will anyone know which chisel was used 100 years from now assuming they are kept sharp & what I make lasts that long?

    I sure would like to get some old socket type chisels that I could make handles for.
    I usually find it much easier to be wrong once in while than to try to be perfect.

    My web page has a pop up. It is a free site, just close the pop up on the right side of the screen

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