Japanese Chissels

[Derek Cohen]

"now totally confused"

Bart

I would be a little wary of the Grizzly Japanese chisels as they have had some negative reports from dissatisfied users. Apparently the steel is quite soft and they do not hold an edge for long. Similarly, the new Marples, since the company was taken over my Irwin, have come in for similar criticism.

All you are after is (1) decent steel that will hold an edge and/or resist chipping out when used for its intended purpose, and (2) a chisel blade that is designed to do the work you want it to (whether to chop, pare, or lever chips). Not all chisels are the same in these categories. There are some good all-rounders (like the Witherbys and LNs), but then you must recognise their limitations and not go beyond that.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pam Niedermayer]

...

Will the wood know the difference or will anyone know which chisel was used 100 years from now assuming they are kept sharp & what I make lasts that long?
...

Yes, the wood will know the difference. Not only that, a knowledgeable person may know which chisel was used.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Well Pam really sounds like she knows her stuff. I like chisels and have been thinking about the Japanese chisels myself. But ask yourself if you have ever been to a woodworking show that sells Japanese chisels that they weren't spending the whole day sharpening them??

Choosing to sharpen and having to sharpen can be two very different events. My Japanese stay sharp at least as long as my Two Cherries or older types, such as Witherby, Swan, etc.

Besides, what else is there to do at a show when between audiences?

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Why do you not use them?? are the very good j .chisels you have so much better? or maybe because now you have the j. chisels purchased specially for a function?

thanks for any feedback.

I don't really know, I just seem to go to the Two Cherries instead. Perhaps it's because the ones I haven't used still have loose hoops and the edges need sharpening. Or maybe because there are 12 of them from which I have to choose, whereas the 2C are only 6. Or ...

For sure I always use a speciality chisel when possible, as they are superior chisels.

Pam

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Choosing to sharpen and having to sharpen can be two very different events. My Japanese stay sharp at least as long as my Two Cherries or older types, such as Witherby, Swan, etc.

Besides, what else is there to do at a show when between audiences?

Pam

Pam, I always heard the Japanese chisels stay sharp a lot longer than western chisels. I never got to find out because I kept chipping the edges on the one I bought to try. Are you saying they only stay as sharp as your two cherries?

[Stephen Dalfollo-Daley]

thanks to all for the discussion and comments....it really does help to understand chisels...i really think they are so central to a woodshop...

I shudder when i think about being a WW without the internet...

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam, ... Are you saying they only stay as sharp as your two cherries?

No, not at all. I'm saying I don't have any reason to sharpen them all that often. Since chisels are used for different purposes, some rougher than others, it's hard to compare them. How do you compare a mortising chisel to a paring, which generally need to be sharper? How do you compare use in walnut, jatoba, teak, mahogany, cherry, and/or PO cedar? The answer is you don't with any precision without undertaking long, serious studies. I haven't done any such studies, nor do I plan to.

Pam

[Steven Wilson]

I have a couple of Mokume-Shiage-Oire bench chisels by Akio Tasai and they are very fine, and exquisite chisel. Are they “worth” the money? Probably. Do you need them or are they that much better than others? No, they do have a very high coolness factor though. Tasai’s other chisels are very fine too and are much more cost effective as a normal everyday bench chisel, they’re also roughly half the cost. I have the LN chisels and Two Cherries and I find that these are very sufficient bench chisels for the tasks that I normally have a bench chisel perform. The Japanese chisels that I like are mainly push chisels used for fine work such as paring or cleaning dovetails, tasks that bench chisels are rather ungainly at. These specialty chisels come in a range of qualities and prices and are a very useful addition to your chisel arsenal.

[Stephen Dalfollo-Daley]

I think that I will be getting a set of Japanese chisels eventually...if for no other reason than I am collecting some tools for the kids...yeah, it is for the children!

There is just no way that I can get i high end set, but I do not want to spend money on the marples/FatMax of the Japanese chisel world....The $129/10 chisels from Grizzly are out....www.craftsmanstudio.com has a cheaper Japanese Chisel as well for $179 for 10 (same seems to be availble from www.japanwoodworker.com )...I suspect they are all the same as the grizzlys...i asked about them (to craftsmanstudios) and found they don't have a maker...they are listed as hand forged, yet i was told they are made in a factory...so they are handforged in a factory (explain that to me)…..

So i can see i need to spend more...I want to get a middle of the road set...so i am thinking the price range for 10 ought to be around $300-$400…there are some in the $400-$500 range for 10 that are listed as well

Here is what I have found:

No Name Bench Chisels $129-179/per set of 10
www.grizzly.com - The $129/10 chisels from Grizzly are out....
www.craftsmanstudio.com has a cheaper Japanese Chisel as well for $179 for 10 (same seems to be availble from www.japanwoodworker.com )...I suspect they are all the same as the grizzlys...i asked about them (to craftsmanstudios) and found they don't have a maker...they are listed as hand forged, yet i was told they are made in a factory...so they are handforged in a factory (explain that to me)…..
www.japanwoodworker.com - also has a set of no name for ~$172 (that includes the 10% discount if you buy all 10 that are available)..shiney steel hoops probably the same as the craftsmanstudio's no name set....and suspiciously like the grizzly $129 set....
Could any of these no name chisels be Kumagoro or Iyoroi in disguise…maybe….I would like to know the factory name

Kumagoro Bench Chisels $260-340/set of 10
www.toolsforworkingwood.com see above...comes with hoops already set about $340 for set of 12…according to the www.toolsforworkingwood.com website these are made by Iyoroi, but don't carry the Iyoroi mark...are these just overpriced "handforged in a factory" chisel, I would like to know…wrought/black handforged hoop...also carried by those below
www.highlandhardware.com - also has the kumagora bench chisels
www.leevalley.com - I believe that these chisels are Kumagoro chisels…5 for $139…preseated wrought iron hoops…they look the same as Kumagoro seen elsewhere…1.5mm-42mm…$24.50-41 per chisel
www.woodcraft.com - I believe that these chisels are also Kumagoro chisels in desguise…pre-seated hoops (although these are shinely, not black/wrough hoops) (description: Japanese Bench Chisels. Made of durable white (high carbon) steel laminated onto a softer steel back for added strength, these bench chisels sharpen easily and hold an edge longer than Western chisels. Made in the same manner they have been for centuries, Japanese chisels are individually tempered to Rc 62-64 by a master craftsman. Each chisel is sharpened to a razor edge, ready to use and fitted with a hand-forged, hooped Japanese Red Oak handle. Handle ends are pre-peened over the hoop and ready to use. Chisels measure 9" long with a 2-1/4" blade length. The 4 piece set includes 6, 12, 18 & 24mm chisels, the 10 piece set includes 3-36mm)

Iyoroi Bench chisels $320-350/set of 12
www.toolsforworkingwood.com - about $320 for a set of 12 (out of stock for 2 months; but the price will be rising when they arrive because of steels costs and exchange rates)....Iyoroi also makes the Komogoro (Ice Bear) chisels that run about $330 (with hoops already set)...black handforged hoop on both Iyoroi and Komogoro
www.garretwade.com also caries Iyoroi and say these chisels are: "Made by a family of master blacksmiths in Miki, Japan"...GW has them in stock for $350 for set of 12)
www.highlandhardware.com also carries Iyoroi)

Hida Bench Chisels $368/set of 10
www.hidatool.com lowest cost bench chisels on the Hida site...no info, no description $368 for 10 chisels from 3mm-42mm, blue/white steel unknown...I have an email to Hida for more info…could these be overpriced Iyoroi/Kumagora?...or…EEEK over-priced No Name chisels from the top of the list??? they do have a shinely hoop, and look very similar

Special Alloyed Laminated Steel Carpenters' Chisels $350/set of 10
www.toolsforworkingwood.com - steel a little different 10 for $350...no 1.5mm

Iyoroi Blue Steel Umeki-Oire Nomi Cabinet Makers' Chisels $480/set of 10
www.toolsfoworkingwood.com - pricing inline with the Matsumoros...6 for $270; 10 for $480...Blue steel instead of White steel...multiple hollows after 9mm…seem to be a nicer chisel…maybe individually made

Matsumora Bench Chisels (Blue or White Steel) $556/set of 12
www.craftsmanstudio.com - these seem to be the real deal...handmade...good ratings from FWW about $400 for a set of 10 from 1.5mm-30mm...another $150 for the largest sizes (36mm, 56mm 1.5" & 2") ($565 for a set of 12 not including the 4.5mm one available)...White Steel...multiple hollows are unknown, but possible
Site Description: Blue Steel: Bench Chisels - Hand made of Blue Steel forge welded to wrought iron and hardened to Rockwell c64 by Master of Blacksmiths Matsumura. Furnished with a best quality hand turned Akagashi (Japanese Red Oak) handle and fitted with a hand-forged iron hoop. Overall length: 9 inches. Blade length: 2-1/4 inches.
These Matsumura chisels were ranked Number 2 out of 16 chisels reviewed in Fine Woodworking Issue 139 for toughness (edge holding ability) Set of 4: $180; set of 6: $276
Site Description: White Steel: Bench Chisels - Hand made of Japanese White Steel forge welded to wrought iron and hardened to Rockwell c64 by Master of Blacksmiths Matsumura. Furnished with a best quality hand turned Akagashi (Japanese Red Oak) handle and fitted with a hand-forged iron hoop. Overall length: 9 in. Blade length: 2-1/4 in. These Matsumura chisels were ranked Number 1 out of 16 chisels reviewed in Fine Woodworking Issue 139 for toughness (edge holding ability).Save 10% off regular prices on 4 and 6 piece sets. Discounts are taken in the shopping cart. Set of 4: $150 Set of 6: $236
www.theJapanwoodworker.com) - also has the matsumora chisels in both blue or white steel...the white being rated #1 by FWW, the blue being "top rated by Fine Woodworking Magazine, calling it "well balanced and a pleasure to use." "...White Steel Matsumora - $31-79 per chisel …...Blue Steel Matsumora - made one at a time by master blacksmith..$36-$85 per chisel
http://www.sculpt.com/catalog_98/Woo...ols/japan1.htm - also available here in blue and white steel…White:$ 26-69/chisel Blue: $36-75..pricing seem better than that above, but the cart may be tied to japanwoodworker
https://smithandspeed.com/index.php - they indicate the larger blue steel chisels are single hollow
Matsumora Comment froma forum: I haven't taken the goop off yet, but let me tell you, they ooze quality. They are VERY heavy duty. Interestingly, and pleasantly, the handles are different diameters. Narrow for narrower chisels, wider for wider.


Overall questions….
So some questions I have...when is a chisel made by a master blacksmith sitting alone in his shop...or made by a master blacksmith in a factory???? piecing together info on Iyoroi seems to indicate that he makes some of his chisels by hand, and some may be made by 'his factory'....in fact he seems to make chisels for Kumagoro as well….at that price I don't think they are 'individually made'

I can fully understand not going over board on getting a full set, when all sizes may not be needed or used...especially if one ends up, with one of the apparently higher quality chisel in the 400-600 range…a good set of 1/8" to 1" should do quite well…I can also see the possibility of keeping to LN/750/Two Cherries for most bench work, and get a set of japanese paring chisels

It is a strange situation where the only info one can typically glean on the makers is what gets written up by the folks selling the tools...kind of like only listening to what George W. has to say about the SS issue...why can I not find anything on Iyoroi or Kumagoro other than from the sellers?...why do some say the blade is hand forged to give the impression of a blacksmith in dark room with anvil, when in actuality it is 'hand forged' in a factory?

BTW...I pray for the day when I will be dropping a high end Japanese chisel from a scaffold.....that will just not happen…(Step 1: Leave my day job….)

reviews on the Grizzly chisels i have seen...some like them...others say they are a joke and an affront to japanese chisels in general...one even said that there is no maker on them because no maker would have their name on the chisel...it was fun reading…I suspect the same can be said of the no name chisels for www.japanwoodworker.com, and www.craftsmanstudio.com

All sellers need to do a better job of web design to start off with, a better job of identifying true one by one makers vs. factory chisels, and do a better job of providing info on the chisels….also some of the pictures available just don't show enough detail….for example I can't find a picture of the backside of a matsumoro chisel…and no one will say if they have multiple hollows or not…

I will pull this info together in the woodworking spreadsheet compilation so that someone may be able to make some kind of comparison….HTH

[Pam Niedermayer]

All sellers need to do a better job of web design to start off with, a better job of identifying true one by one makers vs. factory chisels, and do a better job of providing info on the chisels….also some of the pictures available just don't show enough detail….for example I can't find a picture of the backside of a matsumoro chisel…and no one will say if they have multiple hollows or not…

I suggest that you spend some serious time on the Hiraide site (japanesetools.com). Then give Harrelson a call for his excellent, expert advice.

One of the reasons I bought the Woodcraft set of bench chisels was I got tired of the same search you're going through; so I finally put my foot down, bought the best set I could see and hold in Austin. This wasn't a great mistake, but certainly a mistake. If I'd know about Harrelson then, I'd have save a lot of time and perhaps some money, although that's debatable.

Pam

[Stephen Dalfollo-Daley]

Pam,

Once again good advice...i understand that he has a loan program to get a feel for the chisels befor purchase...how they feel in the hand a big part of why i like these chisels, and will likely be a big part of which chisels or set i end up getting...

[Ed Hardin]

I suggest that you spend some serious time on the Hiraide site (japanesetools.com). Then give Harrelson a call for his excellent, expert advice.

One of the reasons I bought the Woodcraft set of bench chisels was I got tired of the same search you're going through; so I finally put my foot down, bought the best set I could see and hold in Austin. This wasn't a great mistake, but certainly a mistake. If I'd know about Harrelson then, I'd have save a lot of time and perhaps some money, although that's debatable.

Pam

As luck would have it, about a month ago Harrelson gave a demonstration at Woodcraft in Mobile on sharpening. He lived and worked in Japan for some 20 years and really does know his stuff. I found him to be a really down to earth nice guy. That being said, I still like my Pfeil chisels from Woodcraft a lot. They may not be top of the line (or maybe they ain't very far off) but they sure get the job done for me.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam,

Once again good advice...i understand that he has a loan program to get a feel for the chisels befor purchase...how they feel in the hand a big part of why i like these chisels, and will likely be a big part of which chisels or set i end up getting...

I don't know if he still does this, but doesn't hurt to ask.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

... That being said, I still like my Pfeil chisels from Woodcraft a lot. They may not be top of the line (or maybe they ain't very far off) but they sure get the job done for me.

I really like my Pfeil carving chisels.

Pam

[Archer Yates]

fast forward 12 years. I had several of the IYORI Cabinet Maker's Chisels HITACHI Blue Steel, but sold them when I had to sell out my shop to move to Colorado. These were used as a bargaining chip to get someone to buy other stuff. They were excellent for dovetail work and other fine work. They could get into tight corners. The iron rings were a pain sometimes because they seem to work loose. As an aside, I have now repurchased my shop in Colorado, I bought a set of Lie Nielsen chisels, thick beefy blades sockets that sometimes come loose in the dry climate of Colorado, and don't do so well doing half blind dovetails. I bought a set of Stanley chisels made in Mexico, feel sharp but don't cost so well. For paring and mortise work my Robert Sorby mortise chisels are my favorite . I broke on of my Robert Sorby mortise Chisels. I had been using it for 20 years, they replaced it in one week and paid the shipping.
I just found some new old stock and bought a set of IYORI Cabinet Maker's Chisels HITACHI Blue Steel for dovetail work.