+111111111111111Originally Posted by David Weaver
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+111111111111111
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Something from Bridge City?
Member
James, I guess that depends on the blade width, and size of the tails. Sounds interesting, and I'd like to try it myself. What are your thoughts on it?
Maurice
Member
I prefer to chisel out the waste. So maybe we need some super specialized chisels for the task - powdered metal alloys and specially optimized angles for initial chops, intermediate chops, end grain splitting off removal, and final chops. It could be a four piece set. And you'd need a seperate set for each width. Could come in a wall mountable case of 28 chisels. Maybe with some special etching or engraving to make the upper blade easier to grasp and control - and also beautify, of course. All for the low low price of $200 per set.
Last edited by Sean Hughto; 02-14-2012 at 10:46 AM.
Contributor
Then a year later, you could introduce a matched mallet set for each of the specialized chisels to optimize the cut. Issue a press release making everyone bought the chisels feel like they need the mallets to complete the kit.
Guest
Somewhere that brand was swimming around in my head when I said that.Something from Bridge City?
And it's not like I'm innocent of tool excess...so I won't even pretend that I'm ever the voice of reason about doing things cheaply, and backing it up with actions.
I think I was excited about my jewelers saw when I first got it, but brute force in speed with a coarse tooth coping saw has won out over the desire to have a delicate touch. Through dovetails are a brute force speed operation, I think, unless they are very small and/or intended to be exposed (which isn't something I have the desire for).
Member
I'll stick with my coping saw with the skip tooth blades from TFWW. Don't care if it fits in the kerf, as I just start at the top of the kerf and cut down at an angle anyway. Yes, this requires a second cut to remove the rest of the waste which literally takes an extra 3 seconds. But really I don't care what that fret saw sells for, I'm very unlikely to buy one, but clearly there is a market and since he is a small independant maker, I'm guessing the his production costs are pretty high and its pretty unlikley that anyones getting gouged.
Guest
If I showed some of the guys (all tradesmen - boat builders, patternmakers, carpenters) I have worked with one of these saws and told them how much it cost they would just about die laughing.
Guest
Well, there's definitely a different scale on what's justifiable for the hobbyist vs. someone running a business doing work.
Perhaps justifiable for someone who does a lot of fretwork.
But I've seen jameel's fretwork, and I've seen george doing fretwork on video (ask george if the violins were for show!), I don't know if I've ever seen anyone else doing it, because I don't know any jewelers and the veneer fanatics seem to use scroll saws.
Contributor
Can't agree more!
Don't think of it as a tool - it's a low volume craftsman made product - no different from a chair or a piece of furniture. Someone makes their livelihood making these tools, and they deserve to earn a living.
Yes - you can use something else, make your own, or do it another way. Just like you can make your own chair, buy one from Ikea, or just stand...
Honestly - I don't understand the value/craftsmanship disconnect which always seems to arise when looking at tools like this. The prices reflect the resource and skill that went into the product. Firms like us make less selling product like this, than we do on mass produced tools, yet the implicit assumption always seems to be that someone's making out like a bandit.
Want to become a millionaire manufacturing tools?? Easy... start with $5 million, and go at it....
Off my soapbox now....
Cheers -
Rob
(who'll make more selling painters pyramids in one week than he will selling Knew Concepts saws in a year... )
Member
I actually agree with Rob on this, and my Bridge City comment was a little tongue in cheek. Probably in poor taste. There are a lot of BC products that seem silly to me, because I can do the same thing for less money (although others are pretty cool and unique) but I cetainly don't begrudge them the prices they sell at, because I have a pretty good idea of what goes into that sort of work, and the same thing applies to boutique infill smoothers, this fretsaw, custom guitars, etc. I certainly don't think any of these folks are laughing their way to the bank, and I think paying extra for something like this may be more than one needs to spend to get the task done, but you have a thing that you may or may not appreciate on another level, and certainly you're helping to support independent craftsmen or small businesses, which is something that has value to me, even if I can't always do it. I do think the fretsaw is a little extravagant for the sake of simply cutting a few dovetails, as plenty of folks manage to do it with coping saws, chisels, whatever, and I don't think the money vs. time and quality of finished product equation works out for me. But certainly it does for some people or Knew wouldn't bother at all with their woodworking version. I do actually want one of their saws for inlay work, as I've never been happy with using the saws I have for cutting pearl, there's always some little niggle that bothers me.
Whether or not the value proposition works for me in this case or the case of any other boutique item, Im thrilled that LV supports companies like Knew, Wenzloff, Czech Edge and others by carrying their products...
Member
Yeah right Rob! Next I bet your going to try to convince me that you can't afford to convert your entire line of planes to nickel-resist ductile iron... We all know your making a killing on your rust proof block plane
(For those who don't understand e-humor theindicates that the above statement was not intended to be taken seriously nor was it "intended to be a factual statement" ) [get it, come on, some of you must watch the Colbert Report... anyone?])
Last edited by Chris Griggs; 02-14-2012 at 3:45 PM.
Member
I have a cheap coping saw that's pretty miserable to use. So whatever I paid was pretty much a waste of money. If I buy three or four more crappy ones before I find a "good" cheap one, I would have been $$ and sense ahead to buy one "Knew" saw.
Last edited by Jim Foster; 02-14-2012 at 3:47 PM.
Guest
I think (I hope) most of us realize that you'll make far less selling a craftsman made tool than you will something that can be mass produced. I don't think anyone feels like:
1) The maker of the saws is getting rich
2) Lee Valley is making some large amount of margin or money on these saws
It's more like an issue of whether or not a hand built car like a rolls royce is necessary for the average who needs to go 12 miles to work every day. A low margin for all parties involved doesn't necessarily dictate the level of value to a buyer.
As to Rob's (Fisher) comment comparing precise saws and very precise delicate chisels (that are both presumably being used right to the marking line), that's where the disconnect is for a lot of us. Those tools are used right to the marking line or to make a finished show surface (though probably not the saw for a finished surface). Presumably most people are roughing out dovetail waste with their new fret saws, and that's what's got most of us confused.
By no means would I question the decision to buy a great hand-held fretsaw to do delicate fretwork on jewelry or fretwork on instruments, etc. I just don't follow it at all when it comes to cutting out dovetail waste unless someone is cutting right on the line with the saw.
People read these forum posts, and a lot of people who are wondering what they should buy read these forum posts. I see nothing at all wrong with questioning spending $100 or $200 to remove dovetail waste with a precision tool when you will get to the same place with a $10 tool, or with a chisel that you may already have instead.
I have bought a lot of premium tools from people who have never used them, and they didn't think of themselves as a collector. I think that's a shame unless the money someone spent is totally insignificant.
But regardless of whether or not a craftsman or one of my favorite retailers is offended, I don't think anyone should be barred from discussing whether or not it's reasonable to spend for a precise tool to do imprecise brute force work.
Contributor
Truth be told Chris (and I'm delighted you picked that example!) we make more on a $69 Detail Rabbet, than we do on the $295 NX60 .....Yeah right Rob! Next I bet your going to try to convince me that you can't afford to convert your entire line of planes to nickel-resist ductile iron... We all know your making a killing on your rust proof block plane
However, making a $295 NX60 employs more people than making a $69 Detail Rabbet.
Cheers -
Rob
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