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Thread: "Knew" at Lee Valley!!! Anybody see this yet?

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
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    Trussville, AL
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    3,589
    I think we are overlooking or at least glossing over the three biggest points to this saw...
    1) It looks really cool
    2) It's RED!!!
    3) It's something I've seen Chris Schrawz use that I can actually find/afford to buy

    I think I saw or read in his blog something about Mr Scharwz getting similar performance out of a "normal" coping saw after using a hammer to flatten out the set in the blade. That might be something to look into to get the performance with out paying the price. here is a link. Oops, I was wrong, he filled back the set, not hammered...

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Foster View Post
    I have a cheap coping saw that's pretty miserable to use. So whatever I paid was pretty much a waste of money. If I buy three or four more crappy ones before I find a "good" cheap one, I would have been $$ and sense ahead to buy one "Knew" saw.
    Huh? Where are you buying coping saws? You would've been time ahead, but not money ahead unless you're buying hand-made coping saws.

    I think the one I use is not quite as nice as this one, but it works awfully well for dovetails, and I've made slug of plane totes and saw handles with it.

    http://www.homedepot.com/buy/tools-h...aw-114952.html
    Last edited by David Weaver; 02-14-2012 at 4:13 PM.

  3. #33
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    Feb 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Lee View Post
    Truth be told Chris (and I'm delighted you picked that example!) we make more on a $69 Detail Rabbet, than we do on the $295 NX60 .....

    However, making a $295 NX60 employs more people than making a $69 Detail Rabbet.

    Cheers -

    Rob
    I tend to remember really random bits of information, and one such random bit was that when the NX60 first came out you commented in an interview (I think with Chris Schwarz) that if all you sold was the NX60 you'd go broke.

    It is interesting that the NX60 employs more people - is this because of the foundry work involved in making the special alloy?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    But regardless of whether or not a craftsman or one of my favorite retailers is offended, I don't think anyone should be barred from discussing whether or not it's reasonable to spend for a precise tool to do imprecise brute force work.
    Well said Dave. It's sorta like how I cringe anytime time I see anyone say that they are going to buy a LN #5 (or even a Wood River for that matter) only to put a pronounced camber in it to use as their scrub/fore plane. If that's what someone wants then by all means they should get it (heck I might if I had the extra cash). For the task however, (and I think many others would agree) I would consider it overkill, a waste of precision, and money that would be better spent on something else. (No offense to anyone who uses an LN as their scrub/fore - I said that as diplomatically as I could).
    Last edited by Chris Griggs; 02-14-2012 at 9:40 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    Huh? Where are you buying coping saws? You would've been time ahead, but not money ahead unless you're buying hand-made coping saws.

    I think the one I use is not quite as nice as this one, but it works awfully well for dovetails, and I've made slug of plane totes and saw handles with it.

    http://www.homedepot.com/buy/tools-h...aw-114952.html
    I used a stanley fatmax for quite a while. It worked fine and good olson blades make all the difference. In addition to dovetails I used it to make a couple saw handles. I recently got an olson. I do like it better than the fatmax, mainley becasue its easier to change and retenion blades. In use its a little better/tighter, but its not worlds apart. At this point I'm just used to coping saws for DTs, and really have no desire to buy any fret saw for any price. If when I first learned to cut DTs I had used a fret saw perhaps the Knew Concepts would be of greater interest.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    (snip)
    But regardless of whether or not a craftsman or one of my favorite retailers is offended, I don't think anyone should be barred from discussing whether or not it's reasonable to spend for a precise tool to do imprecise brute force work.
    David -

    No offense taken here.... and I know you "get it".

    I find that the real disconnect is between what we pay for goods and services across a spectrum of areas, not just the internal comparators in the woodworking field. People will pay several thousand dollars for aluminum rims on a car they'll drive for 3-4 years, and begrudge $200 for a tool they'll use for their entire life. Two tanks of gas pays for a Knew Concepts saw... (or 10 beers at a sporting event!). I just paid my phone bill last night... $250 for TV, phone, and internet (for two months)....that money's just gone - not much to show for it either.

    The thing with good tools is - they really are an asset that holds value - it's the cheap stuff that's the "expense". There's very little in the way of planned obsolescence in the hand tool world... you may not use the tool, but it will more often than not retain a good portion of its value.

    As for "collectors" - there's nothing wrong with that at all, as long as the person derives some sort of value from the purchase... just as someone who buys a well constructed piece of furniture to decorate a formal room they never use does....

    I have a hard time looking at something like a quality tool that can last at least one lifetime as being conspicous consumption, or a frivolous expenditure. Not appropriate for everyone - certainly - but I think the real "villain" products are actually the inexpensive ones.

    Cheers -

    Rob

  6. #36
    Well, as far as the planes and chisels go, one only needs to try to make one to get an idea of how much of a bargain a precisely made $250 plane is. (i spent more than that for materials for my infill smoother). And that is obviously a finish surface tool.

    And as much as some folks like to complain about the price of premium tools (which doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because there isn't some other inexpensively produced current equivalent, anyway), I saw this watching something this morning that had a comment section. Someone had commented that they knew "tool companies were ripping them off" because a craftsperson in a video recommended buying old stock tools.

    ....and an old stock tool, like a union #6 for example, was $4.75 in 1905 when the average wage was 22 cents an hour.

    Which makes it not look so inexpensive.

    And I'm all for holding tools as value, especially if they can be used in the interim, but I have to make some guesses about which tools will be the ones that are worth a lot in the future. Often that's the odd (and low-number) because of being odd, or the exceptionally and timelessly pretty.

    Everyone will have to make their own guesses about that, I suppose.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
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    133
    A couple questions about the saw
    - Is there any reason to buy the 3" model over the 8" model?
    - Can it do everything a coping saw can do?
    - Are the 15 tpi skip-tooth blades appropriate for non-dovetail work (on the very ungrounded assumption that someday I will be able to do something like Jameel or George)?

    Also, it's amazing how quickly the price disparity between "expensive local" and "cheap but with shipping" can disappear. I work right near Lee Valley, and most of my purchases are decided on at my break time and purchased at lunch time. Everything I want from Tools For Working Wood, once shipping is added, becomes significantly more expensive (somewhere near double the price for holdfasts or saw files). Mill files at LV are cheaper than at 2 of the nearby giant hardware stores, and most books are cheaper at LV than at the nearby giant book stores.

  8. #38
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    Sep 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Lee View Post
    ...I find that the real disconnect is between what we pay for goods and services across a spectrum of areas, not just the internal comparators in the woodworking field. People will pay several thousand dollars for aluminum rims on a car they'll drive for 3-4 years, and begrudge $200 for a tool they'll use for their entire life. Two tanks of gas pays for a Knew Concepts saw... (or 10 beers at a sporting event!). I just paid my phone bill last night... $250 for TV, phone, and internet (for two months)....that money's just gone - not much to show for it either...
    As a society we know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Knowing the value requires a certain education and some work.

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    By no means would I question the decision to buy a great hand-held fretsaw to do delicate fretwork on jewelry or fretwork on instruments, etc. I just don't follow it at all when it comes to cutting out dovetail waste unless someone is cutting right on the line with the saw.

    People read these forum posts, and a lot of people who are wondering what they should buy read these forum posts. I see nothing at all wrong with questioning spending $100 or $200 to remove dovetail waste with a precision tool when you will get to the same place with a $10 tool, or with a chisel that you may already have instead.
    +1 couldn't have said it better myself.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Lee View Post
    Can't agree more!

    Yes - you can use something else, make your own, or do it another way. Just like you can make your own chair, buy one from Ikea, or just stand...

    Off my soapbox now....

    Cheers -

    Rob
    (who'll make more selling painters pyramids in one week than he will selling Knew Concepts saws in a year... )
    Yes I like to save my money so I can spend it on Hacksaws, and Screwdrivers!!!

    http://schoolofwood.com/node/61

    "We were even able to get Rob Cosman to try his hand at cutting dovetails with a hacksaw and a screwdriver, he did a great job(big surprise)!"
    Definition of an expert: Someone more than 50 miles from home with a briefcase.

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Peachtree City, GA
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    Despite my tongue in cheek quote about the price, I have this to say: if you can't stomach the price of a good, or service, then don't buy it. By the same token, don't belittle it either - it's just not for you, that's all.
    Maurice

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Upstate South Carolina
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    114
    This thread has proven to be an interesting read. It is amazing how people change their perspective when they are buying something versus selling something. When a wood worker sells that fine example of had craftsmanship he or she expect to capitalize on effort and skill that it takes to make a hand crafted item. However when the woodworker goes shopping for that fine quality tool we flinch at the cost of fine craftsmanship.

    The truth that resolves this issue lies in the old saying that you get what you pay for.

    Ed
    Some claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.

    William F, Buckley, Jr.

  13. #43
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary AB, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Lee View Post
    David -

    No offense taken here.... and I know you "get it".

    I find that the real disconnect is between what we pay for goods and services across a spectrum of areas, not just the internal comparators in the woodworking field. People will pay several thousand dollars for aluminum rims on a car they'll drive for 3-4 years, and begrudge $200 for a tool they'll use for their entire life. Two tanks of gas pays for a Knew Concepts saw... (or 10 beers at a sporting event!). I just paid my phone bill last night... $250 for TV, phone, and internet (for two months)....that money's just gone - not much to show for it either.


    Cheers -

    Rob
    Hey!!! People NEED those wheels or how will anybody else know how cool they are while sitting at a stop light??? That right there is thousands well spent my friend! lol!

    Bob (who feeds his family and handtool addiction by selling wheels for a living...) Hahaha!

  14. #44
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    Mar 2009
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    Chevy Chase, Maryland
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    I didn't think people were objecting to the tool or its expense. I thought people were chuckling about the idea of buying such a tool for the purpose of removing dovetail waste. It's funny in the way that buying a $5000 racing bike and only using it to take leisurely rides along the canal path with your kids on weekends or buying a $500 french saucepan and only using to boil water for your hard boiled eggs. There's nothing wrong with the bike or the pan or their cost, but there is a chuckle in people buying the "best" only to never really put them to their use.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Hughto View Post
    I didn't think people were objecting to the tool or its expense. I thought people were chuckling about the idea of buying such a tool for the purpose of removing dovetail waste. It's funny in the way that buying a $5000 racing bike and only using it to take leisurely rides along the canal path with your kids on weekends or buying a $500 french saucepan and only using to boil water for your hard boiled eggs. There's nothing wrong with the bike or the pan or their cost, but there is a chuckle in people buying the "best" only to never really put them to their use.
    That is all so true. But unfortunately it is an all too common (and completely false) viewpoint that you are not going to be able to do an acceptable standard of work unless you have the very best of tools.

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