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Thread: "Knew" at Lee Valley!!! Anybody see this yet?

  1. #61
    Thank you for posting that Rob, it motivated me to go buy one from you right now (I already have the painter's pyramids by the way).

  2. #62
    "It's more like an issue of whether or not a hand built car like a rolls royce is necessary for the average who needs to go 12 miles to work every day. A low margin for all parties involved doesn't necessarily dictate the level of value to a buyer."

    I think the question is which is which. The Knew C I just bought from LV is not that fancy a tool, it is relatively workmanlike, not a lot of bling value, I may refinish the handle. It brings huge practical advantages for speed of use, blade tension, and weight in hand relative to sensitivity. So it it bling or engineering. So far I have bought two other fret saws, both earlier LV bests, I think this one will see more use, and allow me to contemplate more uses.

    It is hard to make sense of some of the arguments on price. I know in many fields there are people buying over and over cheap stuff. I looked at my bicycle collection a few years back and at the time I had 4 or 5, and none had better parts than LX with a mix of no-name. I could have bought 1-2 of the most expensive custom bikes in america for that, like a Sachs. There are guys out there who have bought every 1000 dollar Surly bike that comes out, but they will rail on whether a slightly more expensive bike should ever be purchased.

    I think I was pretty dispassionate with this saw because fret saws do not turn my crank. But I make as many quirky purchases as the next guy rationality is rarely behind any of it. There has to be some date, like maybe 1976, when the last person to buy anything in America for a purely rational reason died. There is some cut-off point. I remember reading an article that said that the K car was really pretty good, but it didn't mater, because Japanese engineers were working on what the exhaust system sounded like. I thought that was pretty cool. But they were tuning a Miyata exhaust to sound like an expensive sports car exhaust sounded like from a time when that was just how the exhaust sounded. Even the little plastic pyramids that are making Rob rich are designed to appeal to a response that sees that as the embodiment of a need. It isn't that there wasn't a way to paint stuff until that came along, there just wasn't a product that made a statement about it.

  3. #63
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    I know that when I buy things that are important to me, I buy the best that I can afford, and only buy once. Even if all I'm planning for the current project is to cut waste out of the 5-minute dovetails that I'm practicing on, I know that somewhere down the line, I'll have other uses for that saw or chisel or whatever. If it costs me 2 hours of my income, or 20 hours of my income, what does it matter to anyone else if it's worth that much to me?

    I remember my first car. The stereo I put in that thing was worth half as much as the car itself. And I wasn't listening to anyone's idea of fine music, but just rock and roll. Go figure. I'd do it again the same way because it was important to me.

    Last night I was building cabinets. Tonight it was a water stone holder. Tomorrow I may just walk out to the shop to smell the wood and look at the tools because I enjoy being there, and imagine what I might do with them. I might not even cut the waste out of anything at all. How's that for the waste of a good saw?

    I buy fine tools like I buy fine guitars. My Camry has 295,000 miles on it but it runs just fine, because cars aren't of much interest to me. I spend my money on things that are important to me and don't apologize to anyone.

    No offense intended to anyone, but I find this whole discussion a little bit funny.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Roderick Gentry View Post
    "It's more like an issue of whether or not a hand built car like a rolls royce is necessary for the average who needs to go 12 miles to work every day. A low margin for all parties involved doesn't necessarily dictate the level of value to a buyer."

    I think the question is which is which. The Knew C I just bought from LV is not that fancy a tool, it is relatively workmanlike, not a lot of bling value, I may refinish the handle. It brings huge practical advantages for speed of use, blade tension, and weight in hand relative to sensitivity. So it it bling or engineering. So far I have bought two other fret saws, both earlier LV bests, I think this one will see more use, and allow me to contemplate more uses.
    For dovetails, when a coping saw with swivels at HD costs $8, then the knew is the rolls royce. I wouldn't necessarily consider a rolls to be better constructed or more finely finished than a lexus, but it is certainly a price multiple.

    I have the very first knew (the aluminum). I figure I'll use it until I break it, if I ever do use it (and no, I don't actually think it'll break). I think it's probably stronger than it looks, but the light weight is no advantage to me cutting dovetails unless the material is thin and light. It just means I have to consciously apply a lot of lateral pressure. It is ultimately not as fast as a coarse coping blade, and the coping blade lasts longer and can easily cut things like 7/8" rosewood (the coping blades do eventually snap, too).

    The advantages you mentioned are there, but they are advantages for fretwork, not cutting dovetails (unless you break * a lot * of fretsaw blades).

    All I'm making a case for is if a user who is buying the saw to cut dovetails is doing so because they saw someone else using the saw to cut dovetails, there are probably better ways to spend money in your shop. If you've been woodworking 10 years or a lot for even 2 years, then you'll know whether or not it's worth it to you.

    If you're one of the more typical newbies to this hobby (and this is how I was) and you go through an accumulation phase where you buy everything everyone says you should have, then you're going to waste a lot of money. I wish I wouldn't have bought half the stuff I have, but when I did buy it, I had more money than time, and the stuff I did buy was nice to use. Now that I have time under my belt, and no needs, I'm more inclined to look back with a critical eye toward what I really needed as opposed to stuff that's just sitting on shelves and will eventually need to be moved to a different house or sold (and selling stuff off takes a considerable amount of time, even if you give it away and spend no time on the "sale" of it).

  5. #65
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    I for one, am somebody who would use it for a lot more than cutting out waste...but David W did a great job of articulating the issue. The action in the photo simplifies its operation too much. It's like advertising a premium chisel as a great paint can opener. I think maybe the foto should be showing something else being done, maybe a full spread with masters of intricate scroll work showing the work they did and singing its praises.

    I'm sure this plays to the crowd of those who can't quite cut great dovetails and instead of relying on practice figure they need the most premium tool possible, but for everyone on this forum cutting out waste is a rudimentary task that doesn't require a premium tool.
    Last edited by john brenton; 02-16-2012 at 9:56 AM.
    It's sufficiently stout..


  6. #66
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    I've got the titanium KC saw with the Elk Head cocobolo handle.

    Can I do something with it I couldn't do with my worn-out Olson coping saw? Heck no.

    But I didn't buy it because I was under some false impression that it was some super wonder-tool that would cure warts, freckles, and over-cut baselines. I bought it because I liked the way it felt in my hands, and I wanted a new tool.

    Some people like chisels, some like sharpening stones, some like planes. I like saws. I could afford it, and I wanted it, so I bought it. And really, "wanting it" is the only justification needed - to heck with what anyone else thinks. (Which I'm guilty of - I can't help but catch myself think "WTF?" whenever I hear talk of uber-expensive natural Japenese water stones. But if that's what someone else likes, then that's awesome. I'm not going to ridicule what someone else pays for something that they want.)

    That said, I love it, and if it was stolen today I'd be on the phone ordering another one tonight.

  7. #67
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    My disappointment runs deep Rob... DEEP I SAY!!!



    Okay... Not so much really... Now one must put a happy spin on it (other than a bunch of fabulous vintage moulding planes I mean).... ROAD TRIP!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Lee View Post
    Ummmm.... Bob......

    Ya gotta click on it and check the file name....

    Time to excercise some of those rims.... May 12th weekend.

    Cheers -

    Rob

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by john brenton View Post
    ...I'm sure this plays to the crowd of those who can't quite cut great dovetails and instead of relying on practice figure they need the most premium tool possible, but for everyone on this forum cutting out waste is a rudimentary task that doesn't require a premium tool.
    I think a lot of people here have spent far more than the cost of the Knew on speciality dovetail waste cutters. Two Blue Spruce chisels, for example.

  9. #69
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    I'm trying to make sense of this thread. I stayed out until now because it just seemed so out-of-character for SMC. However Lee Marshall is a friend of mine and I feel that his integrity is being impuned here. Lee is passionate about the saws he makes. So am I.

    The Knew Concepts fretsaw is a damned fine tool. It is not expensive when compared with other similar saws, such as a dovetail saw. I am referring here to the aluminium version - which is the one I would purchase if I were buying. The titanium is never going to be value-for-money, but then I could say the same for a custom infill smoother. That does not mean it is less of a tool, just that it is one for a more discriminating user.

    Whether the user chooses to use it only on dovetails rather than fretwork or whatever also does not diminish the value of the saw for its owner - it is just a tool and as long as it gets used to do a specific task, then what is the problem?





    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Last edited by Derek Cohen; 02-16-2012 at 11:32 AM.

  10. #70
    I don't think anyone has questioned Lee's integrity. I likely wouldn't make the saw for $95 (as in, it's not something I would consider a way to make lots of money), but that doesn't mean I would buy it (again), either.

    It has somehow become unaccpetable for people on woodworking forums to say they wouldn't buy something and don't think it's necessary. I guess it always has been, i've probably been on both sides of it. I really don't understand it, though.

    And the many things I've bought that were not necessary (and there are many..many many), I wouldn't be bothered if someone told me and everyone else thinking of buying some of those things that they were not money well spent (even though I feel some of the vendors are stand-up folks to the max).

    At the end of the day, people who read forums need to have some confidence in their own decisions, and the ability of the rest of the world to run itself just fine, without having to have unanimous consent, or even consensus. Perhaps one of the biggest problems woodworking for the purposes of discussions like these is that many ways work just fine for just about anything you can think of.

  11. #71
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    In so many things in life you end up acquiring much more than you need in the process of getting what you want. My experience is that at least 20% of the clothes I buy are sort of wasted in one way or another because they don't fit like I had hoped or I quickly dislike the style or find something I like more, etc. Same things happens with food that either spoils before we can eat, or we bought too large a package, etc. It's certainly been my experience with tools - especially there, I buy things to try, adopt new techniques, drift to new sorts of projects, etc. which leaves me with lots of extra tools, as you describe Dave. I agree with everyone who says that buying excellent tools is smart and that using nice tools is fun. I also agree with you that it's worth talking about what's actually necessary for certain tasks.

    As for the Knew saws, I had the titanium model's price in my head when I wrote some earlier stuff in this thread. The aluminum model at roughly $100, really does seem like a very fair price and a very nice tool. If I had any need for it, I wouldn't think twice about getting one.

  12. #72
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    No offense to you at all Derek, and certainly no offense to hard working and risk taking people who have brought an innovation to a tool that probably hasn't seen an innovation in decades (if not longer!). You are a far better wood worker than I, and I don't have the guts nor the funds to even dream about producing a tool...so hats off and utmost respect to all concerned...

    I do agree that the comments about the price though are not really necessary. We can all decide what is worth it and what isn't. That kind of point is made often here and in other forums. Just the other day we had an old timer groaning about people paying high dollar for water stones, or groaning about premium planes and saws, or someone shows a picture of a workbench in Borneo to show us all what pansies we are...it happens. Sometimes it is constructive, and sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it exposes a worthless gimmick and shows an economy that we never saw before, sometimes it's just somebody wanting to groan about a price and show everybody how ingenious and practical they are.

    I understand completely. A relative of mine makes very high quality sleepwear for women, and I know what she goes through to do that, and I know how annoying it is to her when someone picks up the item and complains about the price. The price is what it is...and price is relative.

    But, since the cat is out of the bag...well, the cat's out of the bag. I think it's a fine looking saw and I'm sure it performs great. I don't think the price of the tool in itself is the issue. For all the materials, man time, the overheard etc, I'm sure it's a fantastic price. I just personally think that it being touted as the perfect precision tool for an application that really doesn't demand precision doesn't make sense. You could have cut the waste out on those dovetails with a $5 home depot coping saw, and they would have been just as pretty. Your well laid out lines, your dovetail saw, your chisel and your skill made those dovetails pretty...the coping saw's role in that was negligible. You could have cut the waste at half height and caddywhompus and still ended up with nice fitting dovetails.
    Last edited by john brenton; 02-16-2012 at 1:03 PM.
    It's sufficiently stout..


  13. #73
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    I have one loaded up in my shopping cart as I type, but before I pull the trigger I gotta ask:
    David do you want to sell it?
    The Plane Anarchist

  14. #74
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    I'm starting to think this conversation (which has been a good one) has run it's course. Also, it seems to me that there really isn't any disagreement among folks on either side. There were a few tongue-in-cheek comments made previously, but I think everyone who made them has posted since and stated that they didn't mean to imply it was a bad tool or a rip off in any way.

    So let's sum up shall we.

    1) The Knew Concepts Saw is a premium saw at a premium price, that reflects the time, materials, and craftsmanship that went in to it

    2) There are other much less expensive tools that will no doubt do the same job for which that tool is currently being marketed

    3) Despite No.2 above, there is clearly nothing wrong with someone choosing to spend their money that way - even if it for no other reason than it makes them feel good to use it or even just to support the independent maker who produces it

    4) The majority of us have tools that do a job that could be done with a less expensive tool, but the premium tool makes it: Easier, may be better in some cases/for certain tasks, or just makes us feel good to use/own

    5) Woodworking/dovetailing newbies should not feel that they "need" to own a premium fret saw to cut good dovetails. There are a number of other great options that will in no way take away from the end result. This applies to many things in woodworking and distinguishing between "need" vs "nice to have" is a valuable distinction to make, especially considering how many people rely on these forums for buying advice. Making this distinction should not be considered an admonishment of the tool itself, the maker, the retailer, or those who choose to buy it

    6) Even if there were no practical aspect to owning this saw (and I'm not saying this is the case), people who buy this saw should not feel the need to justify owning it to anyone else (except spouses?). Just as no one should feel the need to justify owning an LN/LV block plane, 12k+ sharpening stone, tormek or other [insert unnecessary but really nice to have tool here]

    7) We are all grateful that we have so many high quality tools to choose from and that we live in a part of the world and/or have a standard of living that allows us to indulge in the pleasures of using them and the results they help us produce.

    Check, and mate!!!!!
    Last edited by Chris Griggs; 02-16-2012 at 1:31 PM.

  15. #75
    Just a question for those who have the Knew - I assume it takes 5" pinless fret saw (or scroll) saw blades. Is that correct? Or does it require the blades with pins?

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

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