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Thread: Not all electricians are bad, but this one was

  1. #1
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    Not all electricians are bad, but this one was

    Here's a picture up inside the soffit on our master bath. We've had a growing water stain there since we moved in back in 2001 (new house). We could never tell if the water stain got worse when it rained or if the water staining was due to an issue with the plumbing in an upstairs bathroom of our Trendmaker Homes house.

    While the painters are here this week, and we decided to would be a good time to resolve this issue. Once the sheetrock was cut back, we (me and the painters) all started laughing.

    Apparently, when the house was being built, the plumber got there first and installed the sink vent pipe inside the soffit. So far, so good.

    Then, the electrician got there to install the recessed cans. And, to his disappointment, the plumber didn't leave him enough room. Therefore, he cut a section of the vent pipe out to make room and simply left it open! Good for him! Very creative!

    master_bath_leak.jpg

    Now... are all electricians bad? Absolutely not! As a matter of fact, based on my observations of this house being built, the person that installed that fixture probably didn't even speaka de english.

    But I did pay an Engineer $600 to inspect the place right before the sheetrock was up (my own nickel, not part of the requirements in the contract). The builder supposedly inspected it too. And, for that matter, I even did a walk through and made up a list and I missed it also (unless it was done after the inspections).

    Here's what TOTALLY surprises me, from what I can see in these photos...

    It's not that the electrician cut the plumbing and left it open for rain to fall into the roof vent and drip down and inside my bathroom.

    It's not that water dripping on the light fixture could have caused a short and burnt my house down.

    It's not that the sewer system has been venting in the soffit for the last 10 years.

    What blows my mind is that I actually got insulation in the walls up behind the soffit. OMG. I am in shock.

  2. #2
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    I would make a phone call to the inspector

  3. #3
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    Of course, we don't know the whole story of how the pipes got cut.

    It could be that the electrician talked to the plumber about the issue, and the plumber said he would reroute the pipe and then dropped the ball.

    I guess I'm saying I wouldn't be so quick to judge the electrician or what language he speaks.

    I would blame the builder/engineer though for not doing their job.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Griffin View Post
    Of course, we don't know the whole story of how the pipes got cut.

    It could be that the electrician talked to the plumber about the issue, and the plumber said he would reroute the pipe and then dropped the ball.

    I guess I'm saying I wouldn't be so quick to judge the electrician or what language he speaks.

    I would blame the builder/engineer though for not doing their job.
    Sorry, but I have a little problem with this.

    I'd like to be able to say, "I messed up there... somebody should have caught that"

    I don't think, "Dropping the ball" is a valid reason to mess up.

  5. #5
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    Sadly, one of the big problems I see in building is that "builders" often don't know their craft--they only know how to make phone calls and harass subcontractors to show up. Subs are often left to sort out among themselves who needs to do what and when, and many of those subs don't give a rip if their work messes up someone else's because they've been beat down on price, so they do their work, collect their check and go.

    As a painter, you can guess where I am on that totem pole...
    Jason

    "Don't get stuck on stupid." --Lt. Gen. Russel Honore


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Edwards(2) View Post
    Sorry, but I have a little problem with this.

    I'd like to be able to say, "I messed up there... somebody should have caught that"

    I don't think, "Dropping the ball" is a valid reason to mess up.

    I don't either.

    We just don't know who dropped the ball do we?

    Another possible scenario is the electrician got permission to cut the pipes from the foreman or contractor, who then dropped the ball.

    In fact, the more I think about it, the electrician is probably the least likely to have any blame in the situation. But we don't know do we?

    The only thing we know for sure is the inspector he hired and the builder are to blame, since catching this stuff is their job.
    Last edited by Steve Griffin; 02-21-2012 at 9:43 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Griffin View Post
    Of course, we don't know the whole story of how the pipes got cut.

    It could be that the electrician talked to the plumber about the issue, and the plumber said he would reroute the pipe and then dropped the ball.

    I guess I'm saying I wouldn't be so quick to judge the electrician or what language he speaks.

    I would blame the builder/engineer though for not doing their job.
    This is what I like about a large social network. (And that's what this forum is - a large social network). Different views, checks and balances, knowledge to be shared both directions.

    I seriously doubt that exchange took place, but it's an interesting thought. And, I'm not judging him on what language he speaks. A lot of the Hispanics that work in this area are true craftsmen. And, just like every trade, there are those who aren't. Take the folks who insulated my house. I caught them MULTIPLE times using horizontal wiring (14 gauge Romex) between the studs as a stepladder to reach the tops of the 9' walls. And the sheetrockers, who found, in the fireplace cavity, the top of the metal fireplace box to be a wonderful place to leave their paper plates and uneaten food. I found this 8 months after I moved it when removing the fireplace.

    Ask me again why I'm wary and jaded!

    My blame is on the home building company. Had they been more focused on quality and less on profits, they would have hired more supervisors, but as it was, the supervisors were stretched so thin, he hardly made it onsite that much. Everything trickles down.

    I emailed my engineer last night, and he has already replied, and he said, up front, he could have missed it, but drain pipes were on his checklist (he even pasted a section of my engineering report he filled out, so he knows he would have looked at that pipe. He suggested that it might have been done after the inspection, and I am leaning in his direction.

    I also emailed my builder and requested reimbursement for the repairs. We'll see if they respond.

    It's all fixed now.
    Last edited by Todd Burch; 02-21-2012 at 9:44 AM. Reason: grammar

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ray hampton View Post
    I would make a phone call to the inspector
    The inspector was an employee of the builder, and told me, TO MY FACE, he didn't care who the H.E. double hockey sticks I was, he had zero interest in hearing what I had to say about how the house was built or what issues I might have with their product.

    That's how it went down, and was pretty much par for the course of the entire building project. The general manager offered, twice, to give me a full refund, no penalties, and this was about 7 months into the build. Had I not wanted this particular lot in this subdivision, I would have snatched it up. I picked the lot, not the builder. Lesson learned.

  9. #9
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    considering the inspector attitude , I would call a good lawyer

  10. #10
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    The inspector was an employee of the builder, and told me, TO MY FACE, he didn't care who the H.E. double hockey sticks I was, he had zero interest in hearing what I had to say about how the house was built or what issues I might have with their product.
    Time to call the local authorities who grant the inspector his license. I think Ray was suggesting that you call the inspection office for your county (not the actual inspector who screwed up).

  11. #11
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    This was 10+ years ago guys. Water under the bridge.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Portland View Post
    Time to call the local authorities who grant the inspector his license. I think Ray was suggesting that you call the inspection office for your county (not the actual inspector who screwed up).[/COLOR]
    I am unsure about when to follow the chain of command, would we be better off if we contract the major that the inspector works for or go direct to the man/woman that made the mistake, the inspector may not lift his finger to do any hard work but he is still responsible

  13. #13
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    I was thinking about this some more and thought of another scenario that would make sense. The sheetrockers could have cut the pipe in order to align the two very close recessed cans up. That would place the timing of the cut after all the inspections. Of all the trades that worked on this house, I considered them to the very least skilled. I also credit them with whoever took a dump on my master closet floor.

    I'll never know.

    Here's another one. During the framing inspection, I measured the plumb of the walls in the garage. The 8' tall, long side walls were 1.5" out of plumb, leaning out at the top. I was in regular conversations with the GM by then, and I called and asked what their tolerance was on out of plumb walls. He said 3/4" over 8'. I said "mine are 1.5" inches - come fix them." He said "No." I was stunned. On the bright side.... if there is a bright side... All my cabinets hung on those walls are automatically self closing.

    This having been the first house I built, (and now being in the mindset of gearing up for building my second home), I wonder if I was just unlucky and got a "rare sampling" of those tradesmen who we would all rather not hire, or, on a project the size of a house, is stuff like this typical?

    From my perspective, the above happenings (and so many more I have experienced) are a fact of life, and until proven otherwise, I ride on the side of reservation and cautious.

    Case in point... Painters (first time I've used this company, they came highly recommended) are here at the house this week. Master bedroom, sitting room, sitting room ceiling in latex, and master closet built-in, all baseboard, crown and trim in oil base. Yesterday ended day #2. They've put one coat of paint on everything, and were gesturing last night on their way out that this morning would be their final touch ups. Nope. It looks like my wife painted it (an amateur painter with bad eyesight).

    I had given explicit instructions to the painting company owner (who gave me the initial bid) and then again to all 3 worker-painters who showed up on Monday, that the built-in in the closet was only to be painted on the exterior, as I had already sprayed the interior. Come Tuesday. One guy from Monday showed up, and two new guys. Mid-afternoon I walked into the closet, and lo and behold, one of the new guys is brushing the interior of the built-in. I lost it. This morning, Mr. Owner is getting a call.

    Question - should I have to ride every tradesman that walks through my door? I don't think so.

    I don't think I have too high expectations. When I hire a tradesman, it is because I don't have the time or skills to do it myself, and I expect them to have the skills and take the time to do it right.

    Where are the good ones??? I want to hire them!!! I'm aching to hire them. I'm happy to pay! I'm tired of being the foreman.

    I think I've ranted enough.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Burch View Post
    The inspector was an employee of the builder, and told me, TO MY FACE, he didn't care who the H.E. double hockey sticks I was, he had zero interest in hearing what I had to say about how the house was built or what issues I might have with their product.

    That's how it went down, and was pretty much par for the course of the entire building project. The general manager offered, twice, to give me a full refund, no penalties, and this was about 7 months into the build. Had I not wanted this particular lot in this subdivision, I would have snatched it up. I picked the lot, not the builder. Lesson learned.
    This was pretty much my experience when we built at the peak of the boom. "that's the way we do it..take it or leave it..." Wanted to buy us out of our contract because prices went up so much in the interim. In hindsight, I should have taken the money and run. I'm still fixing their mistakes. I don't know what the answer to bad workmanship is, but a way to hold the contractor accountable for his subs is at the top of my list for our next house.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Calver View Post
    I don't know what the answer to bad workmanship is, but a way to hold the contractor accountable for his subs is at the top of my list for our next house.
    If you've ever done business with EDS (Ross Perot's old company) then you know what it's like to get in bed with the devil.

    EDS's solution would be that the contractor would make the subs sign contracts where the subs would have to pay back everything they made on the job plus anything they ever made working for the contractor on prior jobs. And the contractor would sue anybody else who wanted to hire the sub, because their work wasn't done yet.

    And that's just the gentle stuff.

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