Questions on building a white built-in

[Victor Robinson]

I'm wondering what the best approach is material and finish-wise for a large white built-in.

I was planning on using plywood and poplar for edging and doors, followed by EM6500 (white lacquer) + poly. Is this a reasonable and economical way to go, or are there are other white paints/finishes that would cost significantly less (time or $$) and offer a similar finish?

I've also thought about using white melamine, and though it makes the project much easier in many respects, I don't think it will quite fit in a formal living room of an older home...just feel-wise. Maybe I'm wrong on that.

Is it better to prefinish all the parts and then assemble, or spray the carcass once it's put together?

Your experiences in all aspects of white built-ins are appreciated.

[Prashun Patel]

I can't speak to the EM6500, but doing a built in myself right now, I'll say this: I'd use a harder wood like soft maple for the face frames; it will resist dinging better than poplar.

I would also finish as much as you can b4 it's assembled.

[Stephen Cherry]

If you have white trim to match from a room, maybe brush on would be appropriate. I've seen this done, and it looks pretty good.

[keith micinski]

I would definitely stay away from Melamine. I don't see how you could ever make that look like anything other then what it is. I use birch cabinet grade and use poplar for everything else. I used an acrylic to paint these cabinets and it was a nightmare. I planned on spraying it so I didn't pre paint things before assembly but ended up realizing that an airless sprayer is not the way to go for cabinetry. I ordered an HVLP but while waiting for it to come I painted the cabinets by hand. I wish I would have painted as much as I could once I did it by hand but it was already to late for that. Maybe its just me hating painting anymore but I can honestly say it really ruined this project for me and made me hate it once I was done. It's amazing how much more difficult it is to paint cabinets and get a good quality finish then it is to paint a wall.

[Don Jarvie]

Here my 2 cents. I made some kitchen cabinets and used cabinet grade birch ply and soft maple for the doors and face frames. I wanted the extra strength of the maple to help the doors stay flat.

I painted the cabinets by hand and here's what I learned. I used oil based enamel (Benj Moore) with an oil primer. The key to getting a glass like surface is to use a foam roller and when you use a brush go over it with a foam brush to avoid the brushmarks. I started out using a knappy roller and wound up with an orange peel like finish.

So to get a good finish try to use a foam roller on everything and minimize the brush and start using the roller with the primer. Maybe if I used latex it may have been smoother since the oil paint seems to flow more. I wanted the oil enamal so the cabinets could be washed easy.

All in all I would hand paint again but be much more observant to see how each coat was looking so I would have to sand out the orange peel.

[frank shic]

btw keith, that built in looks beautiful

[keith micinski]

Thanks Frank. While I don't think something harder then poplar would hurt any it probably wouldn't be necessary. I just like the way poplar takes paint over maple.

[Sam Murdoch]

Don't know about the lacquer that you are proposing - my experience with spray finishes is with ML Campbell products - and I don't know why you would need poly over the lacquer. I am currently in the middle of a project that includes lots of hand painting. I'm good at it but was much better when I used oil based paints. Whatever they say - I have yet to use a latex that flows properly or keeps a wet edge long enough to make any projects with intersecting planes look decent. Even adding Floetrol is not a great solution - better - but not great. If I must hand paint I still prefer to use oil finishes which in Maine limits me to marine paints -such as Epiphanes or Petit Easy Poxy with a little Penetrol added. These are GREEAAAAAAAT finishes. The huge downside is the over night drying time that can be a serious difficulty if you are painting in your cabinet shop. Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams alternatively produce pretty decent workable acrylic paints.

Use good brushes - stay away from foam pads - but 3" or 6" rollers can be very useful (there are better ones than others I use a WOOSTER green foam roller. It is about 1-1/2" in dia. and 3" long). Cut in your corners of each section and roll that section out before you move to the next. Paint your cabinet backs OFF THE CABINET, otherwise a good painting technique on the assembled plywood cabinet is better than the aggravation and limitations of painting all your parts separately. I also prime and first coat my face frames, and most of my trim OFF the cabinet saving the final coat for after the install. I think that a hand applied finish with some evidence of brush strokes is a great looking finish for furniture or cabinetry "in a formal living room of an older home". Yes, stay away from melamine.

My professional shop standard for paint grade cabinetry with long term excellent results and customer satisfaction is typically maple plywood, poplar face frames and/or trim, mdf panels for frame and panel parts, and these days I also use Windsor One flat stock for lots of big cabinetry that requires wide face frames or baseboards. The Windsor One is very well preprimed and comes in 1" wide increments (I think starting at 3" wide) x 3/4" or 1" thick. I design my cabinetry as much as possible to use this product without ripping. Windsor One requires that the top coats of paint are 100 acrylic-latex paint. Windsor One also has a pretty extensive trim catalog.

OK, that's my 2¢

[Peter Quinn]

I'll be using the same schedule for some cabs and doors this spring. I've had great luck with Target coatings, haven't tried the white coating yet, but the clears spray great. They definitely recommend a clear over the white EM6500. I did a banquette this fall using a different brand of white water based lacquer with ML Campbell Aquelente as a top coat. The white base gave me a major problem, the ML Campbell was a fine finish that rubbed out beautifully. Client tells me it has been great in daily use in her kitchen, I let it cure 1 month before install.

Oil based paints can be fine for built ins or light duty kitchen use IME if your painting skills are good. I've had mixed results using brush applied acrylic white latex like BM's satin impervo. Worked great in a bathroom, peeled of a kitchen door remodel in 6months around the sink and dishwasher area. For a built in book case I'd consider the abuse much less than your average kitchen.

Mel;amine might work for case with doors, no good IMO for visible shelving areas or glass doors. You might also consider general finishes white poly coating, I here great things about it, haven't use it but every other general product I've used has been fantastic.

[keith micinski]

PLease try the General finishes white coating. I love General finishes and didn't even know such a product existed. Now I want to go out and build something white to see how it does.

[Victor Robinson]

Thanks everyone - some great info and advice here. Point taken about soft maple vs. poplar...probably worth a little extra cost for ding resistance.

I didn't know about the GF Enduro white poly - that is definitely something to consider as it's one product instead of two. I have a white project before the built-in (a daybed), so I may give the Enduro a try. I love Target products but the one thing that was giving me pause was having to spray two products (the EM6500 is a satin undercoat, need to add poly or lacquer topcoat for semigloss).

[Jamie Buxton]

I've sprayed big cabinets with the GF Enduro white poly. It is good stuff. In my experience, the EM6500 is a little thicker than the Enduro White, so it doesn't spray as easily with my gun. I thinned it, which helped, but I still had trouble with orange peel.

I spray with an HVLP. (Mine's an Accurspray with a three-stage turbine.) It does a great job on flat stuff, and on the outside of cabinets. But it does not like spraying inside concave things like cabinets with the back attached, or drawers with the bottom in. The sprayer puts out so much air that when I put it inside a cabinet, it blows all the finish out in my face instead of depositing it inside the cabinet. I spray the back seperately from the case, and staple it on afterwards. For drawers, I make them so that the bottom slides in from the rear, like the eighteenth century.

[John A langley]

Victor Jamie advise about leaving the backs off and the bottoms of the drawers loose, is excellent. this is the way we do ours all the time. Its my personal opinion and experience that the combination of poplar and MDF is the best. If you use a paint grade birch plywood and it has a seam, it will eventually show. MDF paints the best. There's only two down sides to MDF. The fine dust when you cut it and it is heavy. We use ML Cambell's finishes, It might be a little difficult for you to get because it is a commercial finish. Sherman Williams has a gfood lacquer and excellent paints. We have been building paint grade kitchens, bookcases, entertainment centers for years and have had no complaints about dings. Seems to hold up real well.

[Victor Robinson]

Thank you Jamie and John. Really valuable advice regarding backs and drawer bottoms. I'll have to chew on the MDF vs. ply issue. How do you fasten the carcasses together when using MDF?

[Sam Murdoch]

At the risk of starting an argument here - to each his/her own, after all, but there are many downsides to using MDF for cabinet box construction that far outweigh its paintability or its price. As I wrote in my earlier post in this thread, I am a big fan of MDF as a panel material set within a wood frame for paint grade cabinetry or wainscot, but that is where my enthusiasm ends. Plywood holds fastenings including pocket screws, staples, regular screws, biscuits or dominos better, makes a superior glue joint to itself or wood, will hold edge tape better, and is far lighter than MDF. I know you can get away with a lot in the cabinet making biz that others will scoff at, but some compromises just aren't worth it. I also like MDF as a desk top material - just not for building boxes. I have yet to have a properly primed and painted plywood cabinet telegraph "seams". My experience leads me to vote unequivocally for a poplar/ plywood cab. If you insist on MDF for final paint purposes, I suggest adding a 1/4" MDF finished face as needed - though I have never needed to do that. Just sayin'