kreg pocket holes or biscuits for vanity face frame

[Dennis Goodrich]

Hello, it's Dennis the new guy with another question for my first real project of a bathroom vanity. On the front face frame, should I use my kreg k2000 or my P.C.plate jointer to assemble it? I have not used either yet so any tips on using them would be helpfull. I was thinking of making my vanity out of red oak, but on one of my other postings there was some questioning if I should use that type of wood for a vanity. I'm all ears, is there a more Standard type of wood I should use? If frame thickness is 3/4" thick do I use 1-1/4" fine srews? Square drive or phillips drive screws? If using biscuit jointer , are porter cable standard biscuits the same as their "face frame biscuits" or what is the diff. between them? I have orderd a few books on cabinetry making but have not recieved them yet. You all are a great bunch of guys, and its nice that when I read a post and 20 people each have a different way of doing somthing, nobody bashes anyone for the way others do it. I think that lets people open up and write back and not feel intimidated. Thanks ,Dennis

[jack duren]

pocket screws will work better. 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 to me is a personal choice depending on wood and stile width and meat left on the pocket to run the screw through. try 1 1/4 for starters. fine thread for hardwoods and course for softwoods.

you can use two screws down to 1 1/2 but i recommend 1 pocket hole on anything less. glue joints as you assemble. could not tell you how many shops that dont and ive seen the results, not good.

square drive is always an excellent choice as torque is important and stripping is the pits.

watch the books you order. some are more designated to framed or frameless. find the one that suits the looks you are after and pursue it. trying to mix the two options can come with mixed results and stress

[Stephen Dixon]

As to the type of wood. I believe that it is totally up to you. Having said that I would comment that some may feel that because Red Oak is such an open grained wood that it may not be suitable in a high moisture area like a bathroom. I think that the newer finishes offer adequate protection against moisture uptake. I would coat the vanity with 2 coats of dewaxed 1# cut shellac, or Zinsser SealCote, inside and out, then apply a couple of coats of poly over the shellac and it will stand up to some pretty serious humidity. If your still worried about the Oak, try something with a tighter grain structure such as Cherry or Maple.
Steve

[Jim Becker]

Pocket screws are the only thing I would use to assemble the face frames! I do use biscuits to help align the finished face frames with a carcass, but never to build them...to much clamping and waiting!!! Pocket screws and glue is fast, fast, fast...

[Mark Stutz]

Dennis,
I have used both pocket screws and biscuits (not at the same time ) and both work well. Pocket screws are much faster since they are essentially "self clamping" and depending on the number and length of clamps at your disposal, it may take a while to make the faceframe with biscuits.
The face frame biscuits, or FF size, simple refers to the size of the biscuit. They are smaller than size 0, and if I recall correctly, require a different size cutter.

Good luck with your project.

Mark

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Dennis,

Have a look at this Pocket Hole Technique Article that was just posted. It should help you out!

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8119

[Gary Herrmann]

Yet another vote for pocket holes. Clamp the pieces well to avoid slippage.

[Dale Thompson]

Dennis,
Dating WAY back, my first face frames were made from glued butt joints - VERY bad and WEAK! Next came lap joints and brads - OK but LOTS of work! Dowels were next but I NEVER found a REALLY good doweling fixture - lots of sanding! Biscuits were a miracle invention but I got very tired of tripping all over the clamps required and the delay in "production" waiting for the glue to dry.

As of a couple of years ago, pocket screws became the way to go. DRILL, GLUE, CLAMP, SCREW and forget. I still use my biscuit joiner occassionally but my pocket screw bits will become dull long before my biscuit cutter blade. Even if you decide not to fill the pocket holes with those silly after-market "plugs" or, as I do, a 3/8" Oak dowel, they still reflect quality workmanship.

Tool cemeteries are VERY sad places to visit. R.I.P thou good and faithful doweling jig and, soon, thou once-sacred biscuit joiner!

Dale T.

[mil ford]

I would suggest using course screws for all types of wood/plywood. The fine thread screws strip too easily.

[Bill Gerhardt]

I just got a kreg for Christmas and what a joy
Years ago while working on a commercial job (I'm a carpenter) they had a stack of pallets that were red oak I built every part of my vanity cabinet out of it except for the counter top that I used 3/4 oak that I got from the lumber yard its 48" long and 20" deep and 29" to the top of the counter it has had 1 wife,7 kids and 5 grandkids use it so far
I used 3 coats of marine varnish on the counter top and it has lasted well
but pokethole is the way to go on the face frame
good luck

[Bill Lewis]

When we were building our house the "carpenters" installing the kitchen cabinets screwed up the island. There were supposed to be false doors on the sides of the cabinets to line up with a set of real doors and drawers. Well they didn't have it set up flush, but to my advantage they did leave at least a 3/4" setback. I told the building manager to just leave it alone and I would fix it. I grabbed up some left-over filler strips and made face frames for the false doors using the Kreg Jig. I then mounted the false doors to the frames. I was also able to mount the frames to the adjoining cabinets using the pocket hole screws. The whole thing turned out great. Much better looking than if the doors were only mounted to the cabinet sides. So their mstake was really to my advantage in the long run. I found a picture of the the right side of the island. the false door is on the left. The same occurs on the other side of the island, except it is next to a drawer base.

Now I did this job with very few tools, as most of them were still in storage. I just happened to buy the Kreg Jig at a ww show the previous winter. I figured for the price it was worth trying out, and these guys had been around awhile. Besides I might have better results than with biscuits. It only took one use with the tool that made me a believer.

One thing about ww shows that I have learned. Never buy that really cool new invention that you've only seen for the first time. If it really is a good worthwhile tool, you'll keep seeing it over and over again for years to come.

[Paul Campolieta]

I agree the Kreg system is the way to go, buy the full system with all the accessories. I have used the different jigs for different applications. If you have any questions about the useage or anything else go to the Kreg site
I have the Kreg 2000 but they have a new system called the K3
gook luck

[Rob Johnson]

Dennis,

I use pocket screws in cabinet face frames and have great results... Oak is about all I work with for the most part... I also cut 3/4" dado's in my face frames 1/4" deep and glue my frames to the carcuss... Seems to work the best for me...

You can see my complete bathroom vanity build here: http://www.woodworkersweb.com/module...view_album.php

Here is a picture of a face frame screwed together:

[Frank Hagan]

As to the type of wood. I believe that it is totally up to you. Having said that I would comment that some may feel that because Red Oak is such an open grained wood that it may not be suitable in a high moisture area like a bathroom. I think that the newer finishes offer adequate protection against moisture uptake. I would coat the vanity with 2 coats of dewaxed 1# cut shellac, or Zinsser SealCote, inside and out, then apply a couple of coats of poly over the shellac and it will stand up to some pretty serious humidity. If your still worried about the Oak, try something with a tighter grain structure such as Cherry or Maple.
Steve

Red oak is OK for this use. It does blacken in reaction to dampness around any iron or steel, a result of the tannic acid reacting with the metal I guess. I've had this happen with stainless steel as well, and I suspect the stainless fasteners were not non-magnetic stainless. So avoid ferrous fasteners anywhere that water might be present, and use bronze, silicone bronze or brass. The blackening doesn't penetrate very far, so it won't be a problem for any clips holding in a sink underneath the top ... you will see blackening around the clips and fasteners there, but it is localized.

You can "ebonize" red oak by putting it in water with steel wool. I've done small pieces this way, and it works really well. I understand it works with white oak too (although at $8 a b.f., any white oak I get isn't going to be "ebonized"!)