Pocket Screws or Domino's for Face Frames

[Craig Michael]

Perhaps in a normal application, but on a faceframe, will that joint get a lot of stress? especially when each component is then screwed/nailed/glued to the carcass? I'm not asking that rhetorically; if you do it differently, I'm not above altering my method.

Oh yeah, glue in this application just means I have to sand a little more if I get some squeezeout.

As Mreza said, you would be amazed how much strength glue will add. When you have some scraps around, do a few test pieces. I found out how strong by accident. I made a face frame, pocket screwed and glued with titebond 2. 10 minutes later I realized I forgot to subtract an inch so I tried to take it apart, make the extra cut then put it back together. After only that 10 minutes, minus the pocket hole screws, the joint would not budge. I would have broken the wood to get the joint apart. I could not believe it was that strong and after only 10 minutes.

[Jim German]

Sounds like pocket screws are the pretty clear consensus for putting together a face frame, and biscuits are favored for attaching it to the case.

Unfortunately I don't have a biscuit jointer, so that option is out. I think I would also like to attach the face frame to the cases, with the cases already hung on the wall. This way I would be able to have one face frame for the whole set of 4 cabinets as opposed to individual face frames that are butted together. I think my strategy will be to use a combination of pocket screws, and dominos. The dominos in places where I can't hide the pockets, and the screws to help clamp the face frame to the case.

[Steve Griffin]

Oh yeah, with pocket screws, glue is optional.

Glue is not optional in my shop. It adds a great deal of strength and helps seal the joint from water intrusion which, in a kitchen, can actually happen. It helps lock the joint from seasonal wood movement and twisting.

It only takes a second to apply a bead and is cheap. I also would need to use more pocket screws without glue, especially on high impact areas like the bottom fixed shelf of a cabinet. So using glue can save time too.

[frank shic]

another reason i don't apply glue is that if i mess up the calculations, i can easily take it back apart and try again!

[Sam Murdoch]

Sounds like pocket screws are the pretty clear consensus for putting together a face frame, and biscuits are favored for attaching it to the case.

Unfortunately I don't have a biscuit jointer, so that option is out. I think I would also like to attach the face frame to the cases, with the cases already hung on the wall. This way I would be able to have one face frame for the whole set of 4 cabinets as opposed to individual face frames that are butted together. I think my strategy will be to use a combination of pocket screws, and dominos. The dominos in places where I can't hide the pockets, and the screws to help clamp the face frame to the case.

Just a bit more info if you care - I typically build my cabinets as individual purpose boxes and then gang them up together with one face frame assembly to connect all the pieces of each elevation (as much as this is practical, and I have built some huge gangs of cabinetry). All the face frames are attached to the cabinets in the shop with the exception of loose scribe verts as needed to fit between two walls. Otherwise my scribe verts are also fully integrated and trimmed in the field. For uppers I can get away with ganging up 3 or 4 cabs including a corner because I use a lift for doing the install.

All this to say, that if you can gang your cabinets together in the shop, even if just temporarily with pipe clamps, you can do just what I suggested in my first post as regards fitting the face frame to the cabinetry. Using dominos is certainly possible, just less forgiving, but if you use elongated holes that will help keep the frustration to a minimum while still giving you perfect alignment. You will be very happy not working off a ladder in your kitchen trying to bore the domino slots. If you can - I highly recommend that you gang up your cabinets and attach your face frames in the shop. You'll need help doing the install with the heavy cabinets but you will end up with a much better job. Leave doors off and shelves set aside until the very end. And yes, do glue your joints with pocket screws. Swinging doors take their toll on the joints of even the best attached face frames.

Just a thought

Sam

[David Hostetler]

I haven't done many, but on the few I have done, I have used biscuits to assemble the face frames, and pocket screws / glue to attach the frames to the carcass.

[Phil Thien]

another reason i don't apply glue is that if i mess up the calculations, i can easily take it back apart and try again!

I always use glue.

I have tested with and without glue. With glue is a lot stronger. And what I've noticed on long-term no-glue PH joints is that the wood shrinks during winter just enough for the joints to loosen up a bit and when summer returns, the joints may not be perfectly flush any longer.

[frank shic]

that's especially true on wider panels that you join together. i haven't noticed this as much in face frames.