Dust Collector too small (HP) and locating in garage create dust on cars?

[Salem Ganzhorn]

David,
When I was looking for a cyclone I was disappointed that Oneida did not list specs on their fans. I ended up getting a deal that was just too good to pass up on a 2HP Super Dust Gorilla. I took pictures when I took it apart. The impeller is 13.5"x4":

Untitled by eyekode, on Flickr


Untitled by eyekode, on Flickr

I don't have all my duct up yet and most of my runs are short but I have been pleased with the dust collection and noise level. One of these days I would love to borrow a dylos and see how it really does. But I still wear a mask when using my TS and bandsaw because I don't have DC above the table yet. And no amount of suction from below will fix that.

Good luck guys!
Salem

[Todd Brewer]

I spoke to Oneida today. In a nut shell I told him my longest run was around 50'. He didn't ask about bends and I didn't have a lot of time today. He recommended a 3HP unit. He also recommended large pipe at the DC, for 8" inlet, run 8" about 7' then 7" for around 12' then reduce to 6". Use 5" on verticals and 4" connecting to machine. Lot's of folks seem to think 6" all the way. Completely different recommendations. Oneida claims the smaller diameter pipe prevents the material form falling out of the stream.

This evening I was planning on changing out the 5" lines for 6" lines. I have two 5" lines off the 6"main line, the 5" runs about 18' across the ceiling where it will come down to a drill press. Another one just like it goes to the band saw. If I use 6" then machines could move around (be relocated) I would have more air flow, unless of course Oneida is correct and I want smaller pipe as i get farther away.

Should I swap out the 5" for 6"?

Current contenders: Clear Vue 1800 and Oneida Pro 2000, both 5HP. Worried Oneida 3HP may be borderline and I don't want to swap them out again, that's why I lean toward the 5HP. Some are now saying the 2HP I had may have been enough. ???

I couldn't sleep last night, thinking about duct design.

[David Kumm]

David,
When I was looking for a cyclone I was disappointed that Oneida did not list specs on their fans. I ended up getting a deal that was just too good to pass up on a 2HP Super Dust Gorilla. I took pictures when I took it apart. The impeller is 13.5"x4":

Untitled by eyekode, on Flickr


Untitled by eyekode, on Flickr

I don't have all my duct up yet and most of my runs are short but I have been pleased with the dust collection and noise level. One of these days I would love to borrow a dylos and see how it really does. But I still wear a mask when using my TS and bandsaw because I don't have DC above the table yet. And no amount of suction from below will fix that.

Good luck guys!
Salem

Salem, that is a big ass fan for a 2hp motor. Put an amp meter on it when running with a 6" port open and let us know the draw. Would also be interesting to know if the 2.5 hp motor uses the same fan. Their 5 hp fan is only a little over 15". Dave

[David Kumm]

"Todd, don't lose sleep yet. If Oneida recommended a 3hp unit with 8" to 7" to 6" pipe they were worried that the restrictions of using 6" all the way would bring their 3 hp unit below what you want. I do that with with my 5 hp unit for the same reason. If you can save 1" sp that can get pretty significant on the resistence side of the curve and when you can increase the size of the ell you may gain a couple. The wide blade BI design -I've been told- provides lots of cfm at low resistence but tops out a little earlier than a larger diameter narrower blade design so saving sp is a big deal. Whether you go Oneida or Clearvue you will save some resistence by graduating the pipe size. 2.5 radius ells on the horizontals adds up too. If you do it right you can juice the 3 hp to work fine. For $200 I would avoid the problems and have a system I could put any machine I wanted on. But you can make the 3 hp work. Dave

[Salem Ganzhorn]

I would Dave but I dont have an amp meter .
Salem

[Rod Sheridan]

Rod, since the CF ratings are straight fan curves, how much did you add to the 4" for cyclone and filter loss? Dave

David, that's what happens when I don't read all my notes, at 6.5" it's 1.95 HP. I added 2.8" WC for the cyclone and filter...............Which is very similar to the Oneida design, remember that the Oneida blowers are optimised for their application, it makes an enormous difference.........Rod.

[David Kumm]

David, that's what happens when I don't read all my notes, at 6.5" it's 1.95 HP. I added 2.8" WC for the cyclone and filter...............Which is very similar to the Oneida design, remember that the Oneida blowers are optimised for their application, it makes an enormous difference.........Rod.

Hey Rod, been there done that. I would argue though that 2.8 is a little light. Very few cyclones go less than 3" and filters if new go 2" unless they really don't filter. I'm thinking 5" might be more best case than worst. Have no way to check though. Although i think the Oneida systems are really well made for the price point I'm not sure they can be designed or manufactured to outperform industrial use or priced blowers. Again, no proof though. Dave

[Todd Brewer]

David, if it were you, would you get the 3HP or 5HP?

[Salem Ganzhorn]

I have a 2 HP Super Dust Gorilla that I am pretty happy with. That said if you are buying new I would go for the 5 HP. It is only 200$ more which is not much considering the overall cost of the system. Just make sure you have the extra 3" of height. Another consideration is the electrical. You will need 30A instead of 20A for the 5HP.

<edit> the manual says to use a 20A receptacle for the the 5HP model. And they say it only draws 19.5A. But I have never seen a 5HP motor be specified for a 20A circuit...

Also one other thing that was mentioned previously is with either system if you want to locate it in a different room you must make sure you have a way to get makeup air into your shop. And you better not have any gas burning appliances in there otherwise you could very well be sucking carbon monoxide into your shop!
Salem

[David Kumm]

David, if it were you, would you get the 3HP or 5HP?

Todd, you are asking the guy with the 24" planer, 16" jointer, and 5 hp DC. I'm biased to overcapacity. I have never regretted paying $200 more for something I liked but have regretted the opposite. I do have an 18" planer and 12" jointer in storage for proof. Dave

[ian maybury]

Thanks Salem, good to know. That is a big impeller for 2HP....

ian

[Todd Brewer]

I have a 2 HP Super Dust Gorilla that I am pretty happy with. That said if you are buying new I would go for the 5 HP. It is only 200$ more which is not much considering the overall cost of the system. Just make sure you have the extra 3" of height. Another consideration is the electrical. You will need 30A instead of 20A for the 5HP.

<edit> the manual says to use a 20A receptacle for the the 5HP model. And they say it only draws 19.5A. But I have never seen a 5HP motor be specified for a 20A circuit...

Also one other thing that was mentioned previously is with either system if you want to locate it in a different room you must make sure you have a way to get makeup air into your shop. And you better not have any gas burning appliances in there otherwise you could very well be sucking carbon monoxide into your shop!
Salem

Thanks Salem,

I agree, for a little more money, why not get the more powerful system? I have a 10ga. wire roughed into the attic of my shop. Very easy to route to the DC. I wouldn't run a 19.5A motor on a 20A circuit.

I'll provide a path for the make-up air. In the winter I will probably route it through the attic. With a black roof, I will get some warmth for no addition cost. In the summer I will probably provide for an alternate path.

I don't have any gas burning appliances in my shop. No heat no A/C.

Thanks for the tips!

Todd

[Carl Beckett]

I couldn't sleep last night, thinking about duct design.

Classic. I have spent way too much time thinking about DC design.......

Just last night was in another part of my shop where there is no DC - routing MDF. What a huge mess (and yes I used a respirator and a fan with the doors/windows open). Will be satisfying when I get this all hooked up and functioning at a high level.

In fact, I think this stuff might be the best test of DC you can do - just cut some on the tablesaw, or on the router setup, as a test on how well your DC system works. Its almost impossible to keep from making a mess (and the dust is nasty - maybe formaldehyde in it??)

[Carl Beckett]

That impeller looks pretty nice. You see a curved vane design - many of the impellers are straight vaned and this could make a big difference.

I havent designed vanes for air handling. I have designed vanes for centrifugal pumps. On the larger HP units the vane geometry, and 'volute' geometry (the housing the vane runs in) can make a big difference in performance. The pressure/volume/RPM curves would tell. (you need the RPM's tracked to be sure its not motor related speed changes). You can put a crappy motor on a good pump head and get poor performance. And a good motor (vs a poor one) might be capable to driving a higher diameter impeller (simply because it demands relatively less power at a given rate). But ultimately, you can check overall system by mapping pressure, flow rate, speed, and motor current (and voltage - or true power would be ideal) draw. Deep into the design work of the manufacturer, and Im not sure why they would publish this info (typically not selling into highly engineered applications, although thats what its become to this community).

[Michael W. Clark]

That impeller looks pretty nice. You see a curved vane design - many of the impellers are straight vaned and this could make a big difference.

I agree, the curved impeller blades should be more efficient. I thought all of them were straight blades. I still don't think it is as efficient as a BI though.

Deep into the design work of the manufacturer, and Im not sure why they would publish this info (typically not selling into highly engineered applications, although thats what its become to this community).

Carl, as you know from your experience, the overall system performance depends on the pump performance and its interaction with the piping system losses. In a large system, these losses are typically known when selecting and sizing the pump. This is also true with "most" industrial ventilation systems. We design the hoods and get CFM required, then size the duct for the proper velocity, then select the collector and determine its losses, design the stack (if applicable), and finally select the fan and motor to deliver the CFM necessary at the required SP.

When buying a system for home/hobby use, you are not buying an engineered system. You are buying an "off-the-shelf" DC to match up to your duct system. In home shops, like industrial applications, each duct/piping system is different. In a home shop, we have to figure out the best match of "off-the-shelf" equipment to work with our system. Each model of equipment has its window where it performs best. However, we typically do not know our system requirements (which are often depateable), we have little information about the equipment for sale, and even less information about how the published performance was obtained to comapare other manufacturer's. This presents a very challenging problem to purchasing and installing a succesful home dust collection system. Even the term "successful" is subjective in this case.

When a question is posted, and we give a response, someone else always has a different view and opinion. This is good because it allows us to learn from others and realize the value in their opinions. However, sometimes facts need to separated from misconceptions. I, for one, definitely have plenty of misconceptions and always appreciate the chance to learn. I have a better appreciation of Oneida from this thread and have learned about nuetral vanes from this forum. I even had a customer ask me about nuetral vanes the other day and was able to respond. We may get a little too technical sometimes when trying to illustrate a point. But, I would rather be talked over than talked under. I don't have a problem asking someone to explain it in layman's terms so my simple mind can understand it.