Alternative potential sources for Ammonia

[Douglas Clark]

OK... I did a search on this searching for Ammonia in the post titles and didn't come up with anything, so I'm trying you guys. I also realize this could be posted in the finishing section, but it's more a general supply question than technique based.

Besides blueprint supply places, which are rapidly diminishing in number, where else is good to look for ammonia if you are looking for a local supplier? Industrial supply houses? Chemical suppliers? I'm in a smaller area with fewer potential suppliers, so I'm trying to be creative in where I look...

Also, I'm guessing that you can buy online, but also guessing that the shipping costs are outrageous due to hazmat issues. But this is an assumption on my part. Are there any cost-effective online suppliers and what are people paying these days for a gallon?

[Jamie Buxton]

I understand anhydrous ammonia is used as a fertilizer in large-scale farming. You're in a farming community, so maybe there's a possibility there.
However, I also understand that anhydrous ammonia can be used in cooking meth, so it may be tightly controlled.

[Van Huskey]

First, I would just look through the phone book and make calls to chemical supply houses etc, likely if they don't have what you need they can point you in the right direction. I said all this, as it is obvious, because as soon as I read the title it hit me where to get NH3, the cat box! Sorry, I just cleaned out our kittys rest room...

[Douglas Clark]

Hehe... when you said I was in a farming community, it took me a second to realize how you knew that. Then I noticed I hadn't changed my status since I've moved. Guess what... either way, you're right. Although, the farming community I came from (in California) was more meth heavy than the one I'm in now (Mission Valley, MT).

So, would you activate the dry ammonia? Just by soaking it? Actually, I'll probably wait on trying that for a while; however, now Van has me regretting that I was somehow able to avoid ever taking a chemistry class in all those years of college. Because now I'm going to ask a really embarrassingly ignorant question... is the source of the ammonia from the kitty or the kitty litter (I think I already know, but that's kind of gross)? You did get me thinking, maybe I could just go find a local dairy, build a tent over a manure pile, and just let the wood sit there for a day or two. I bet it would work!

Ultimately, Van is probably right, I just need to work the phone book and call some chemical companies. I was just hoping someone would have a convenient tip.

[John Coloccia]

OK... I did a search on this searching for Ammonia in the post titles and didn't come up with anything, so I'm trying you guys. I also realize this could be posted in the finishing section, but it's more a general supply question than technique based.

Besides blueprint supply places, which are rapidly diminishing in number, where else is good to look for ammonia if you are looking for a local supplier? Industrial supply houses? Chemical suppliers? I'm in a smaller area with fewer potential suppliers, so I'm trying to be creative in where I look...

Also, I'm guessing that you can buy online, but also guessing that the shipping costs are outrageous due to hazmat issues. But this is an assumption on my part. Are there any cost-effective online suppliers and what are people paying these days for a gallon?

What are you using it for? Does it have to be pure or are perfumes and stuff like that OK? Most office supply stores, hardware stores (real hardware stores....BORG is not a hardware store), Walgreens, maybe Walmart, etc will carry ammonia. It's a common cleaning product. A 10% solution of ammonia should be pretty easy to find, just not at the local supermarket.

[Peter Quinn]

We get it for fuming from the printing supply company at work. We still have on of those old ammonia blue print copiers in service! I think its a 27% aqueous ammonia solution? I wear a charcoal mask to load the box, and goggles, and the stuff still burns my eyes just from the fumes when loading and opening the fuming box. Nasty stuff. IIR you can use regular house hold ammonia to fume, it takes a bit longer and perhaps a bit more of it, but the results are the same.

[Jerry Bruette]

Douglas

Don't even think about anhydrous ammonia. The stuff is under high pressure and very dangerous. It can burn you in three ways, you can get a thermal burn, it will burn you by absorbing the moisture from your skin and a chemical burn because it's a low ph.

When I worked in the paper industry we used to get anhydrous in a rail car and then mix it with water to make our own aqueous ammonia. I don't remember the strength but it was stronger than you would use for making blue prints. It sure would take your breath away if you had a leak and it made the grass grow like crazy.

Jerry

[Michael Peet]

IIR you can use regular house hold ammonia to fume, it takes a bit longer and perhaps a bit more of it, but the results are the same.

This. It is said that fuming was discovered when people noticed that oak boards in stables tended to darken from the ammonia in animal urine. I would imagine, although I am not sure, that even household ammonia is more concentrated than horse pee. I made a few fumed samples last year with regular ammonia and it certainly works.

Mike

[Jim Falsetti]

FYI - A little backgroiund on ammonia (NH3) production...on-purpose ammonia is produced in chemical plants using natural gas, oxygen, heat and catalysts. It can also be made from other hydrocarbons or coal. First the carbon and hydrogen in the feed is converted to mostly carbon monoxide and hydrogen, and then the carbon monoxide is combined with steam and "shifted" to carbon dioxide and hydrogen. The hydrogen is separated from everything else and combined with nitrogen to form ammonia.

John is right - for most woodworking tasks, you can find retail ammonia without too much trouble. However, if you are having trouble finding what you need, try a distributor like Airgas and ask for a retail anyhydrous ammonia supplier in your area.

Jim

Edit - yes, the stuff is very dangerous. It is also used to make explosives. Perhaps inquiries may put you on some kiind of terrorist watch list.

[Curt Harms]

At one time aqueous ammonia was used as a fertilizer but I'm sure Anhydrous has replaced it. I'm sure Peter is right, the stuff you buy at the store will work, it'll just take longer. 27% vs. 10(?)%

[John Coloccia]

What is he going to do with ammonia gas? I would think he want ammonia in solution, no? Anhydrous ammonia is quite nasty. You wouldn't catch me using it for anything outside of an industrial setting.

[Rick Lizek]

Anhydrous means without water which makes it a gas. We lease a 100 lb tank of anhydrous ammonia for fuming timbers. Just buy the regular ammonia from the hardware store. What takes us an hour with anhydrous will take 24 hours. Use a fish tank bubbler to help the gas release from the water in regular ammonia and it will work faster. You can get just as good results from regular ammonia. Just takes longer and isn't worth paying more for the occasional user. A full blast of anhydrous ammonia in the face can kill you. We use full face respirators with cartridges for ammonia. It's tough on the eyes as well.

[jason thigpen]

i tried chemical supply, pool supply, and cleaning supply places with no luck. finally just walked in the door of a local blueprint supply place. they had a few gallons of 29% on the shelf. cost me $17.

[Van Huskey]

is the source of the ammonia from the kitty or the kitty litter (I think I already know, but that's kind of gross)? .

You guessed it from the cat itself. It has ammonia in it straight from the cat, it is part of the metabolic process of all animals in dealing with nitrogen rich compounds, it will break down in the environment by bacteria to nitrites and then nitrates, then it is plant food and the circle of life starts again. The ammonia tens to smell string in cats as they have relatively high concentrations partly due to their urine being rather concentrated.

[John Coloccia]

Ace carries "janitorial strength" ammonia (10%) which they will ship to your local store.