new shop and zoning issues

[Dave Randalls]

Good evening gentlemen,

I have been nosing around here for and absorbing vast quantities of valuable information, thank you all for your insights. I did a search and came up empty. I am wanting to build a 30 x 50 shop behind my house. I have a .33 acre lot and can stay clear of my easements, but the city says i can only build an 800 sf building. My question is whether or not there is any way around the zoning laws to get this done. the city ordinance says also that there may be no more than 2 buildings in addition to the principle structure. (2) 20 x 40's???? also what about if its attached to the house??(addition) have any of you circumvented the rules to get this done in your area? if so i would really love a bit of clarification on "attached to home". Thank you in advance for your responses.

it should be noted that my home is zoned r-1 and 1 block over there is a landscape supply company(zoned light industrial) and agricultural zoning. What could be a compelling argument for a variance?

[Rick Potter]

Dave,

It varies by jurisdiction. In my city 'attached to house' used to mean by a porch, or even a covered walkway. They changed it a couple years ago to be attached by heated space. This hit me between plan submission and approval, and I had to change my plans for a granny flat drastically.

As far as the size, you could ask for a variance, which includes getting neighbors to approve it, and going to the planning commision. It takes a while. Never tried it. When I built my shop 6 years ago, they would not allow it to be over 14' tall, even though there is a 16' Freeway block wall next to it, I considered asking for a variance, but did not want to take a chance waiting, as they told me they were reconsidering how large to allow outbuildings to be. I was afraid they would not let me build my shop as large with the new rules. BTW....6 years later the rules haven't changed.

A buddy in a neighboring town was limited to 750 (?) sq. ft. Mine is 1600. Go figure.

About attaching it....my shop could have been two story if I had attached it, but I didn't want to. That may be a way to go....attach a secondary 'garage' to the house. That probably wouldn't be considered a secondary structure.

Ask for advice from the planning and building department. I have found that they are usually very helpful to owner/builders when they realize you want to build a solid safe structure, and are willing to follow the rules, rather than trying to get away with something like some people do. I built mine more sturdy than it needed to be, and they liked that.

Hope this helps,
Rick Potter

[Jim Andrew]

I'd check to see if a "breezeway" would do it. City gov can be a pita. You might also check the covenants on your subdivision. If you have to, the right lawyer can often be a great help.

[Bob Lloyd]

Dave

As Rick points out, it will vary depending on the jurisdiction so what one person has done would probably be irrelevant as the zoning laws they used would not apply to your case. You did not state what forces restriction of 800 sq ft. It appears that you can meet setback requirements but is there a lot coverage restriction ( % of land covered by buildings) or is the maximum allowed in your zoning fixed at 800 sq ft? Do you have an existing garage or other accessory structure? Is it attached or detached? As regarding to "attached to home", again that would depend on the definition in your jurisdiction. I have done a number of variances including one that required easements on side and rear setbacks and lot coverage for one addition. The biggest factor in any of them is the impact on the neighbors and whether they have objected to or supported the application. As Rick suggested, talk to the planning or zoning department, the employees there are governed by rules that a committee or board has drawn up, they have to abide by them but they can advise you as to the procedure for a variance or other way to achieve your goal. And as Jim pointed out, a lawyer can help but is often not necessary. Good luck.

[phil harold]

"covenants on your subdivision" as Jim said are keys but talk to the planning department about what you can do about a variance.
the city might get afraid ya might be doing commercial work in residential zone...

[Ted Calver]

Sounds like a long haul to me. Some random thoughts: City may want to know what activity requires such a large structure and whether that use is permitted in a residential area. They may require you to obtain a permit for a home occupation. You may need a special use permit that requires planning commission and board of supervisors approval, complete with multiple public hearings and the consent of your neighbors. Obtaining the permits may require a site plan prepared by a licensed professional who can help you with the process. Check the municipal code/ordinance on-line if it is available and review all pertinent sections. If you do that, you will be as well versed as the planner down at city hall. Check the code to see if the SF limitation is for habitable space only and see if a garage is considered habitable space. Good luck

[Thomas Bank]

As an architect and also a member of our local planning commission, the main point that the others are making is true - a lot depends on your municipality. Given that, a few insights.

Variances are rarely worth the time and trouble. You have to prove a hardship - not just that you "want to do" something. Basically that there is something about your property that inherently limits you from doing what you'd normally be allowed to do. That you want a larger building, taller building, other use, not adhere to setbacks, whatever - that is not a hardship. A hardship would be something like having an undeveloped lot of a certain size and the regulations require a stormwater detention basin of a certain size due to the lot size but due to a sloping site if you put the detention basin in you won't have any room to actually build. Basically, you cannot build without the detention basin but creating the detention basin means you cannot build. That would be a hardship. Even there, they may make you put in an underground detention basin. But if you have a rocky site and it will cost millions for an underground detention basin you're then back in the hardship category.

Likewise, expecting to change the zoning ordinance is going to likely take years, lots of money, and a major push by a lot of your neighbors to institute a change.

For Rick's comment about being hit with the change between submission and approval - typically that isn't the case. Most cases once you've submitted something you're grandfathered if they change the rules. But the determining factor is often a public meeting on the change. Once they've had the public meeting, they can enforce the new rule even before it has been officially passed. So if they had that meeting before you submission and voted to approve the change after your submission, that may have been what happened.

You'll have to talk to your codes enforcement officer to see what is allowed for "connected" structures. As mentioned, this could be a breezeway or could need to be an enclosed heated corridor. Depending on how far away your house is, this may not be practical.

We just went through this issue with an update to our zoning ordinance. Other members of the planning commission wanted to put a limit of 50% of main structure size on any accessory structures. However, we have a number of older single story one or two bedroom houses where even a two car garage would be above that limit. I got the limit raised to no more than 100% of the main structure size with the argument that there were no limits on attached accessory uses. So you could build a one bedroom house with an attached ten car garage (I was going for the ludicrous), but not a one bedroom house with a detached two car garage.

Again, as an architect, I feel that allowing detached structures is a benefit as you can have a better scale to the structures. By requiring accessory uses to be attached, you get some monstrous designs that may not fit in with the rest of the neighborhood. A detached structure can move the accessory use away from the main building and fit in better with the neighborhood.

Dave, you don't say where you are located, but if you want to PM me I'd be happy to help you work through the "legalize" of their requirements and what you'd be allowed to do.

[Jason Roehl]

Threads like this make me sad--having to ask permission for what you can do on your own property, or making sure it "fits in" with others in your neighborhood.

Oh, well. Most people don't own their property anyway--it's all rented (if you don't think it's rented, try not paying your property taxes and see how long you maintain possession...)

I'd say it's a hardship if you can't enjoy your hobby on your own property as you see fit in the space you want to build. I'd push the issue (diplomatically, of course).

[Bob Lloyd]

Thomas

I agree with a lot of what you say but not on your statement of variances rarely being worth the time and trouble. As a builder I had an instance were a single story addition took up a lot of what was left of a very small rear yard. Three variances were required; side and rear setbacks and lot coverage. Neighbors did not object and it was passed. What was the hardship that the homeowner had to prove? Another where the side set back required a variance even though an addition could have been built away from the boundary line. It made more sense to build it where it ended up. We all agree that it depends on the jurisdiction; obviously what has worked for me in MA or NH may not work for you in PA. As we do not know where Dave lives, what the rules are there and how they respond to variances a lot of our experiences are invalid. Generally, in my area, we apply for a building permit knowing that it will be turned down by the building inspector. He notifies with a letter of refusal and a variance is applied for. It goes to the ZBA who then assesses it. It takes a few weeks but is not that much of an ordeal. I am sure the procedure is different in other parts of the country. Hopefully, Dave takes up your kind offer of help.

[Jim Andrew]

Be sure you tell your building office you are building a hobby shop. Otherwise you will be in a mess, as you are not allowed to run even a part time business out of your house with R-1 zoning. Know of guys who do, but they don't have any neighbors who complain. And they don't have customers showing up at the house. When I was a builder, one of the inspectors was concerned that I might build anything in my garage, because he was sure it would go on a jobsite. Why is not village zoning common in this country? With village zoning, you can run any kind of small business from home, as long as you have no employees.

[Thomas Bank]

Bob,

Things vary greatly from state to state - and even municipality to municipality. What I can and cannot do is quite different from a neighbor two blocks over who is actually in the next town.

Although other places may be more or less lenient, the rule of proving hardship is typically based on setting a precedent. If you can go in and get a variance just because you cannot do what you want to do you may as well not have zoning. If the zoning says xx' setback and you get a variance, the next person who cannot work with xx' setback can point to you and say "Well, you let him do it!"

But, as I said, it varies greatly.

[Sam Layton]

Dave,

I did a major addition to my house and built a shop in the back yard as well. My city rules are somewhat like yours. My city allows no more than two additional building totaling 900 sq ft. Regarding my house remodel. I needed a minor variance to build 5 ft into my back yard setback. After a lot of hassle, I did receive the minor variance by having all of my neighbors sign.

I built my shop with a front porch. The city said my porch was part of my 900 sq ft because the porch was covered. My shop is 750 sq ft and my porch is 150 sq ft. When I submitted my plans the first thing they did, is calculate what percent of lot coverage I had. I passed that with flying colors. Then they looked at my plans for my shop, and calculated how many sq ft it was. They informed me that my shop was 911 sq ft, and was not acceptable. I had to go back home and change my plans to comply exactly with their 900 sq ft. Then it passed.

My plans regarding the shop, indicated that it was a "shop". No problems or questions there.

Do a little research, and find out what it takes to get a variance. There are several types of variances, all have different requirements.

Good luck, Sam

[Bob Cooper]

what I've experienced here was in SC was pretty reasonable. I live in a neighborhood where each house has about 5 acres. My neighbor-to-be wanted a variance...they wanted to build w/in a setback. The county simply asked my permission. But like all things involving gov't...it can vary dramatically from place to place.

[Rob Damon]

If it is a county/city ordinance, you should be able to go to the county/city website and lookup the code/zoning requirements. In my case, it could not exceed the SF of the principle house, it could not exceed the height of the principle house by more than 125%, it required a rear and side yard set back of 10'. Since it is just a hobby shop I did not need a special use permit. Because it has a toilet in it, I had to sign a waiver document saying I would not use it as an accessory apartment, without getting it vetted through a special use permit.

A few months back someone here in the county complained about the size of some of the detached accessory buildings in Yorktown and tried to get the size limit reduced to I beleive 50% the size of the principle house, but board of supervisors rejected that. The folks that complained did not realize that once a building is built, it is grandfathered and they could not force their neighbor to reduce the size of the building and they would be stuck with looking at it forever, even if the law changed.

If you are planning on using it as a hobby shop then you shouldn't have two many requirements, if you are planning on using it as a business, it may make sense to trying it out as a hobby shop for 6 months or a year and let the neighbors have a chance to see what noises they can expect and see if you get any complaints. That way if you need a SUP to turn it into a home based business you will have a track record with the neighbors. If you got complaints, you may be wasting you time, if you didn't get any compliants then you may even be able to get some of your neighbors to come to the board meetings and speak in support of you.

Also, the Building construction method/materials might be different if you are going to use it for business use as oppose to hobby use, so make sure you look into that as well, in case you are planning to go down that route.


Rob

[Bob Lloyd]

Thomas Bank

Bob,

Things vary greatly from state to state - and even municipality to municipality. What I can and cannot do is quite different from a neighbor two blocks over who is actually in the next town.

Although other places may be more or less lenient, the rule of proving hardship is typically based on setting a precedent. If you can go in and get a variance just because you cannot do what you want to do you may as well not have zoning. If the zoning says xx' setback and you get a variance, the next person who cannot work with xx' setback can point to you and say "Well, you let him do it!"

But, as I said, it varies greatly.

Thomas

We both agree, as do most of those that have posted, that in depends on the jurisdiction and I agree and accept your comments about precedent. My reply was based solely on your statement "Variances are rarely worth the time and trouble."I have found differently and I would not want Dave to ignore that possibility.