View Poll Results: Where do you fall?

Voters
489. You may not vote on this poll
  • SS Owner: brake has never fired and no injuries

    49 10.02%
  • SS Owner: I've been injured

    5 1.02%
  • SS Owner: Brake fired accidentally

    37 7.57%
  • SS Owner: Brake fired and prevented an injury

    8 1.64%
  • Non SS Owner: I've been injured

    69 14.11%
  • Non SS Owner: no injuries

    336 68.71%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: SawStop vs Non SS Table saws poll....Accidents and accidental firings

  1. #91
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    This is precisely why I get on everyone about the poll and it's purpose. It's because this thread will rapidly turn into a bickering match and will rapidly get nuked, like all such threads. I'd rather it just exist so that people can continue to vote if they wish to, and everyone can draw their own conclusions. If someone wants to argue about regulation, insurance, what they think is reasonable or unreasonable, etc, please start your own thread and feel free to reference this one, but I just ask that we all keep the philosophy out of this one so it doesn't go off the deep end and disappear.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by ian maybury View Post
    Just to be clear - I'm not unduly concerned about the issue, and for sure it's only a straw poll.

    That said there's a gazillion things we get up to as societies that probably an even more powerful anti case can be made against on economic grounds - speculative banking activities, smoking, alcohol, sports, risky food additives, poor dietary habits, gambling with climate, biospheric and environmental risks to name but a few.

    I doubt that politically the average Joe would be very happy to accept that level of false firings (for which he gets to pay) for the greater good.

    There's also the little problem of moving goalposts - as discussed before when you dumb down things people proportionately drop their awareness to the level of risk they perceive as being personally acceptable. With the result that accident levels tend to remain constant.

    Not to mention that rules tend by definition to target extreme behaviours at the expense of the majority that behave reasonably.

    Add the fact that every time we run with rules that we tend to mobilise a whole slew of competing vested interests. Once implemented and staffed we've very definitely created a pro lobby that mostly doesn't care about the rights and the wrongs - and the lesson of successive societies is that reversal becomes almost impossible.

    Worst of all this same self interest means that organisational systems in general never truly solve problems when a lack of care for self and others is at their root - the best they can hope for is to achieve some sort of temporary stasis.

    Meaning that while it's tough to argue for the complete elimination of regulation it's dodgy territory needing a lot more care than the usual camel type solutions the dog fight tends to deliver...

    ian
    Dude...I'm thinking that just for reading that post I should get some kind of college credit.

  3. #93
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    Apr 2005
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    Forest Hill, Maryland, USA
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    While I understand the idea of the poll, it has way too many holes in it to provide meaningful data. Some of the obvious issues:

    - Saw availability - how long has the SS been available?
    - Number of saws in use (related to above)
    - Geographical availability - Is SS available everywhere?
    - Kickback is unrelated to the SS blade brake
    - Cost - there may be a correlation to the carefulness of the user depending on what sort of saw they can afford
    - Type of saw - as far as I know, SS makes a contractors, cabinet and something better than a cabinet saw. They don't make a jobsite saw.
    - Usage - hobbiest, professional, site carpenter, DIY'er
    - Personality - I would hazzard a guess that a more cautious person would be more willing to buy a SS than someone who is not as cautious - their work habits will be different regardless of the saw.
    - Conditions of use - in the field, in the shop, on the driveway
    - Sample size - 329 (when this was written) is not enough
    - Sample makeup - One has to know who is answering
    - Reliability - related to above - are there people answering who don't even have a table saw?


    The list goes on.

    I don't choose to do my own poll because I don't think it could be pulled off to provide meaningful data without spending a lot of time and money.

    Just my two cents.

    Phil

  4. #94
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    Please pardon me John, the thread had run for quite a while and it seemed reasonable to open some discussion on the results....

    ian

  5. #95
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    The big stat that is bandied about in the media relates to "amputations" due to tablesaws, so I will vote: Non SS Owner, no injuries, even though I got hit in the gut by a kickback and I had a nasty bruise, there were no internal injuries, and no blood trickling down. In retrospect another category for "nasty kickback" might have thrown a bit less mud in the water.

  6. #96
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    Oct 2008
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    Eau claire, Wisconsin
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    I am a NON SS user with no blood letting, but a couple of little kickbacks, but on things that should not have been doing. One was a small cut off that tipped back into the blade and was blown into little bits as it shot out, the other was when cutting some styrofoam sheets that tend to move around due to light weight. Large sheet being moved and bent into the blade, made a nice half moon cut in the foam, but no injuries.

    On the SS the originator is a woodworker who is a "LAWYER" not saying anything bad about lawyers in general, but he wanted to get a monopoly on making the SS technology standard on all TS and maybe other saws also. So it was for the money and I don't knock him for being a capitalist, but as a lawyer he was and is prone to laws, and lawsuits etc. and when the guy got the award for his own stupidity when using a small saw on a job sight, that lawsuit opened the floodgates for the SS dream on every saw. Here is an excerpt from a report on new UL standards:

    PTI is made up of well-known manufacturers of portable and stationary power tools. It's a trade organization whose members have invested $100s of millions to increase safety in table saws. The facts are often quoted in support of statistics that show the number of horrific accidents due to improper use of table saws. In reality, however, injury rates have gone down even though power saw usage has more than doubled in the past 10 years. One of the primary ways in which injuries have been reduced is through the use of new voluntary standards that have been adopted by UL. For example, UL 987 includes a completely revamped table saw guard design along with other standards and has debuted in more than 800,000 saws since 2010.
    Here's the kicker: to-date, there have been no reported blade contact injuries on table saws with the new guard. None. That's not to say that there can't be, but the new designs are sufficient. On top of that, improper use of the table saw (including removal of the guard) is the cause of nearly all table saw injuries and the new UL standard makes it more convenient to keep the blade guard on while making a variety of cuts. The new guards also give users better visibility and can be easily removed in parts to facilitate a greater amount of safety on a variety of cuts. The new UL 987 guards are designed not only to protect the operator from blade contact, but also from injuries due to kickback.
    So what's going wrong? Well, the CPSC (Consumer Product Safety Commission) is being pressured for new safety standards, specifically referencing new technology that will apply to all table saws. In particular, the company doing the majority of the petitioning is SawStop, owned by Stephen Gass, a patent attorney. Mr. Gass, holds more than 70 U.S. patents (with over 120 filed), meaning that SawStop would have a total monopoly if the CPSC adopted their specific petition request.



    So as you can see, it always comes back to the operator and how safe they are, because no matter what type of safety is put on a tool, someone will find away to get around it and hurt themselves. So follow the rules, keep gaurds in place and don't cut things that should not be cut on a TS.

    You are your best safety!

    My 2 cents,


    Jeff
    To turn or not to turn that is the question: ........Of course the answer is...........TURN ,TURN,TURN!!!!
    Anyone "Fool" can know, The important thing is to Understand................Albert Einstein
    To follow blindly, is to never become a leader............................................ .....Unknown

  7. #97
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    Yes, I voted "I've been injured" - but not from a table saw. My problem was with a radial arm saw.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harvey Melvin Richards View Post
    I think you actually have to use it before you can get hurt. That's one very clean shop.
    I was thinking the same thing. I rarely can even see my saw, much less see myself reflected in it. Carrion.

  9. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Nicol View Post
    PTI is made up of well-known manufacturers of portable and stationary power tools. It's a trade organization whose members have invested $100s of millions to increase safety in table saws.

    Jeff
    Just as a note, by "Trade organization", they mean "lobbying organization".
    They spend a couple hundred k a year lobbying the federal government (more in state governments, where reporting laws are not as stringent).

    http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/cli...5630&year=2011

    They also outspend sawstop by at least 2x on lobbying.

    Note that PTI's lobbying money does not include the lobbying money spent by the individual companies (IE B&D, TTI, etc), which each lobby to the tune of a couple hundred k each as well.

    They are all "prone to lawsuits" and "laws". They all heavily patent their devices (they each own more patents than sawstop). They would all destroy each other with patent lawsuits if it wasn't mutually assured destruction, etc.

    There is no right and wrong here, no good guys and bad guys.
    It's all just business.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Piwaron View Post
    Yes, I voted "I've been injured" - but not from a table saw. My problem was with a radial arm saw.

    I'm curious why you'd vote you were injured since this poll is specifically about Table Saws?

  11. #101
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    Feb 2003
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    Milwaukee
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Day View Post
    I'm curious why you'd vote you were injured since this poll is specifically about Table Saws?
    Sorry, my bad. I've had a kickback once or twice over 25 or so years. And there's other things many woodworks have that are at least as dangerous as a TS, maybe more. The thing for me is that *all* of them - planers, jointers, etc. are risky but it's odd (to me) that it's the tablesaw that's getting all the attention. In fact, for me, the tablesaw is almost the *safest* tool I have! My bandsaw is the safest. For me.

    About kickbacks - those things are nasty! The first one I had through the workpiece into the block wall about 5 or so feet behind me. It shattered apart.

  12. #102
    I had one kick-back on a large commercial machine with all guards in place about 18 years ago, hurt like the dickens. Hit me just below the belt. I've used a Contractor saw since without any issues whatsoever....knock-knock. I personally would rather see the manufacturers focus on TS dust collection efficiency.
    Mac

  13. #103
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    Sep 2005
    Location
    Columbia City , Indiana
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric DeSilva View Post
    I voted non-SS, no injury. But honestly, clicking that button made me feel like I should knock on wood afterwards.

    The one oddity here--and I may be wrong about this--is that the SS doesn't prevent kickback, right? So for an apples-to-apples comparison, we really need to eliminate kickback-related injuries (the bruises; blade-related injuries from kickback seem fair game)? The reason I ask is because I saw a lot of people talking about kickback bruises.
    Im Knocking on my computer desk wright now !!!! KNOCK....KNOCK....KNOCK....
    Ive been thinking about buying a SS. Just have not pulled the $4000.00 doller trigger......yet..
    I Love My Dedicated Machines ! And My Dedicated Wife Loves Me !

  14. #104
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    Nov 2007
    Location
    Saratoga Springs, Utah
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    863
    My injury occurred before I had my slider. Doing wrong things and being in a hurry. Kickback in the stomach and a bruise that lasted almost 9 months. Knocked the wind out of me and it came from a 15 amp Ridgid contractors saw. No injuries so far with my Grizzly slider!
    Sawdust is some of the best learning material!

  15. #105
    I didn't answer the poll because I don't think I fit any of the categories offered. I use them at work but have a nonSS at home. I have been injured but not from a blade and the SS would have been disabled for what I was doing anyway.

    I just thought you'd like to see the wall of shame from a few years ago....( I'm not on it).
    1afd06ef.jpg

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