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Thread: Using a laser to build a CNC router

  1. #16
    Way cool!

    I'm currently considering a Shapeoko as a starter unit as the best balance of cost and capabilities. Apparently it's fairly easy to expand on one axis, so will want to upgrade to at least 12" on one axis though.
    Last edited by William Adams; 03-26-2012 at 9:35 PM.

  2. #17
    Lee

    Very nice work. Keith is high on Vectric software.
    Mike Null

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  3. #18
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    Lee,

    I agree with everyone, you did a nice job on the CNC build. Soon you will get the fever so bad you won't believe how much time you will be spending with your new machine.

    I am in fact a Vectric Software fan. Vectric delivers the stuff that works and its easy to get started with their software. I was lost when I started up my first CNC Router and I struggled with the software until I purchased VCarve Pro. After upgrading to Aspire when it first started shipping I was able to do more with my machine than I had expected.

    If you put the business aspects of CNC Routing aside these machines are the most "Fun to Run" I have ever seen.

    Hope to see your work in our CNC Forum soon
    .

  4. #19
    Very nicely done. I will say I'm a bit surprised by your budget line though. $3000 you can do something with 8020 extrusion and a superior rail system. You won't get the dual drive though.

    https://www.finelineautomation.com/store/show/FLA100-00 would be an example of what I'm referring to.
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  5. #20
    So now we need to see pictures of things you make with it.

    And thanks for the price breakdown. I guess the little pieces of hardware add up quick.
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  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Moshinsky View Post
    . . . I will say I'm a bit surprised by your budget line though. $3000 you can do something with 8020 extrusion and a superior rail system. You won't get the dual drive though. . . .
    Ross, the link you supply shows a decent 8020 frame, but I'm not sure what you are suggesting with regards to Lee's budget. He says he can duplicate his for $2400. (When you design something from scratch there are always a few parts left over from things that didn't quite work as originally planned.) The Fine Line product in the link is $1599 but there are no electronics, no software, no router, and no motors.

    Can you buy something similar off-the-shelf rather than build it? Sure . . . the discussion of build vs. buy goes on all the time on the CNC forums. It always depends on what people's objectives are and their tradeoff of time vs. money. Many people enjoy the challenge of the design and fabrication exercise; other people just want to make stuff with a purchased machine. To each his own I suppose.
    Last edited by Richard Rumancik; 03-27-2012 at 10:34 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Moshinsky View Post
    Very nicely done. I will say I'm a bit surprised by your budget line though. $3000 you can do something with 8020 extrusion and a superior rail system. You won't get the dual drive though.

    https://www.finelineautomation.com/store/show/FLA100-00 would be an example of what I'm referring to.
    Yup, a complete kit for $1600, for some arbitrarily low value of "complete kit". I see this all the time in CNC forums: somebody will say, "That machine only costs $1600.", then you look closer and realize it takes another $1000-$2000 to actually get it to a point where you can make something useful with it. Look at the bill of materials I posted and start subtracting out the things that kit is missing: my equivalent of that $1600 kit runs under $750.

    Is my machine as good as that kit? Almost certainly not. But I ran the numbers and couldn't get a FLA machine configured to "turnkey" configuration for much under $4000. And most of the point of the exercise was the process of designing and building it: if I'd wanted a turnkey system, I would have just bought one.
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    "Design"? Possibly. "Intelligent"? Sure doesn't look like it from this angle.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Hillmann View Post
    And thanks for the price breakdown. I guess the little pieces of hardware add up quick.
    The little pieces of hardware are bad enough, it's the big pieces that people tend to forget about that will hurt you: the router, the router bits/mills, the software, the computer to run the software, and the stand to put it on so it doesn't sit on the floor looking stupid.

    An entertaining (and/or scary) exercise is to take that list to the hardware aisle at Home Depot and start pricing out the 25lbs of nuts and bolts.
    Yoga class makes me feel like a total stud, mostly because I'm about as flexible as a 2x4.
    "Design"? Possibly. "Intelligent"? Sure doesn't look like it from this angle.
    We used to be hunter gatherers. Now we're shopper borrowers.
    The three most important words in the English language: "Front Towards Enemy".
    The world makes a lot more sense when you remember that Butthead was the smart one.
    You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much ammo.

  9. #24
    I hear ya.

    You are still going to need a 3-axis controller and software which adds even more cost.

    Mach3 is a good starting point.
    I design, engineer and program all sorts of things.

    Oh, and I use Adobe Illustrator with an Epilog Mini.

  10. #25
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    A further note about the files: anyone looking at the files in their current state is likely to brainlock like a parent assembling a bicycle on Christmas Eve. I could post Corel files for the MDF cuts of the 'as-built' machine today, but I'm not sure how useful they'll be without a lot of top-level drawings and assembly notes, most of which doesn't exist at this point except in my head. (My mental 3D visualization skills are extremely good, but my 3D CAD skills are virtually non-existent.) Anybody still want them?

    The path I took to get to this point ran through this book: http://www.buildyourcnc.com/Book.aspx. My machine has roughly the same layout, at least from the table up, but much beefier structure. Some of the odder aspects of the construction methods are explained there better than I could in posts of reasonable length.
    Yoga class makes me feel like a total stud, mostly because I'm about as flexible as a 2x4.
    "Design"? Possibly. "Intelligent"? Sure doesn't look like it from this angle.
    We used to be hunter gatherers. Now we're shopper borrowers.
    The three most important words in the English language: "Front Towards Enemy".
    The world makes a lot more sense when you remember that Butthead was the smart one.
    You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much ammo.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee DeRaud View Post
    Yup, a complete kit for $1600, for some arbitrarily low value of "complete kit". I see this all the time in CNC forums: somebody will say, "That machine only costs $1600.", then you look closer and realize it takes another $1000-$2000 to actually get it to a point where you can make something useful with it. Look at the bill of materials I posted and start subtracting out the things that kit is missing: my equivalent of that $1600 kit runs under $750.

    Is my machine as good as that kit? Almost certainly not. But I ran the numbers and couldn't get a FLA machine configured to "turnkey" configuration for much under $4000. And most of the point of the exercise was the process of designing and building it: if I'd wanted a turnkey system, I would have just bought one.
    $2,258.00 with electronics, Mach3, and the full kit. Figure $200 for shipping you're at $2,458. Router is about $150. Mount is another $70. Limit switches, wires, and e stop are about $100. That puts us at about $2,778. That leaves enough money for cable management, a few bits, and a spoil board. Obviously doesn't cover dust management or the CPU/monitor. These CNC's can run on older XP PCs no issues, so you're looking at about $200-300 for a CPU and monitor. Even if you go crazy and get a new laptop for $500 you're still not that much over $3000. If we really want to talk about money, you can find an 8020 supplier locally and have them cut the extrusion to size. You can also have a local metal supplier supply you with the CRS rails. A day on the drill press and you've knocked conservatively $200 off the price.

    I'm glad you enjoyed building your CNC but I think people looking at it thinking "wow that is cool" should understand that for a very similar price, you can get an all metal machine that is bigger and badder. One paying job could pay the difference between the two machines as 60ipm vs 150ipm is night and day. I've yet to hear anyone say anything positive about their MDF CNC other than it was a great learning experience for their next build.
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  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ross Moshinsky View Post
    ...but I think people looking at it thinking "wow that is cool" should understand that for a very similar price, you can get an all metal machine that is bigger and badder.
    Bigger and badder is relative. I work with numerous "real" CNCs and can say that you get what you pay for. 20k+ in the used market will get real work done. In my opinion, there is no CNC machine capable of real production work for the $3,000 you mention. Mach3 is also just controller software. What about the controller? That can easily run a grand with the 3 required stepper boards. Plus, any CNC that runs a router is more or less useless. They are loud. They burn out. They have a lot of run out. A real CNC has a spindle. The cost of that plus the speed controller can be a large chunk of money. It looks to me like Lee wanted to build a CNC using his laser. That he did and it looks like he did it well.
    I design, engineer and program all sorts of things.

    Oh, and I use Adobe Illustrator with an Epilog Mini.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Griffith View Post
    Bigger and badder is relative. I work with numerous "real" CNCs and can say that you get what you pay for. 20k+ in the used market will get real work done. In my opinion, there is no CNC machine capable of real production work for the $3,000 you mention. Mach3 is also just controller software. What about the controller? That can easily run a grand with the 3 required stepper boards. Plus, any CNC that runs a router is more or less useless. They are loud. They burn out. They have a lot of run out. A real CNC has a spindle. The cost of that plus the speed controller can be a large chunk of money. It looks to me like Lee wanted to build a CNC using his laser. That he did and it looks like he did it well.
    1. Did I say biggest and baddest or did I say bigger and badder? Why are we talking about "real" cnc's here? We're talking about $3000. It's not a production machine but you can do pay work on it. Considering MDF machines can't hold up to cuts of any significant depth at any real speed without bending, my statement is more than valid.

    2. Go on the FLA website. It's very clear you get a very good 3 axis kit for $519. It includes a Geicko G540 and 3 NEMA 23 380oz motors. It's the standard package for a entry level CNC. The Geicko G540 is actually considered one of the best stepper driver packages out right now.

    3. Why are you talking about spindles when Lee's MDF machine clearly uses a wood router?

    As I said, I think $3000 is a lot of money for a MDF router. $3000 gets you an all metal machine which is bigger and badder. If you disagree with that, that's your choice. There are probably a thousand people on CNCZone who agree with me.
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  14. #29
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    I think it's a great educational excercise , and a job well donebut an expensive one IMO
    I saw some really nice machines , all configured with some good parts (italian spindle - not sure which one, good lead screws and bearings etc)) for about the same money in china... all seemed to work off mach 3 (prolly pirated) or Autocad/Phcad or Ezicut...
    I saw em working and they were pretty good
    the machine with a 3kw spindle was around $3700 complete , not sure of exact size but it was at lest 1200mm x 600mm or bigger
    Yeh , I know , talking China is considered unpatriotic and sino stuff is considered junk , but I have been in CnC since 1986 , had one of the first cnc routers here (Isel from Germany) and run a serious tekcel machine , but if I were looking for another one , I would readily buy one of the chinese machines.
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  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodne Gold View Post
    Yeh , I know , talking China is considered unpatriotic and sino stuff is considered junk , but I have been in CnC since 1986 , had one of the first cnc routers here (Isel from Germany) and run a serious tekcel machine , but if I were looking for another one , I would readily buy one of the chinese machines.
    I'm not sure too many people on this forum have ever said the reason to not buy Chinese is due to patriotism. The issue most people have with it is exactly what we've seen play out since your endorsement of them. We've seen dozens of people buy them, then we see daily threads, and I do mean just about daily where people can't figure something out, can't understand how to use it, want to know the electrical configuration, didn't get parts, had to fix things on their own, and a host of other issues like that.

    It's not about patriotism, it's about buying a machine you can order, get, plug in, and use. From the many posts that have come up since you bought your machine, I can't say than too many of them fit into that category. Even you, after having the machine for a VERY short time were already talking about buying new RECI tubes. To you and other owners, you seem to be perfectly happy working on your machines and trying to make them better. I have no issues with that at all, however there are many other people that don't have the background and don't want to have to work on their machines to the level some of you do.

    That doesn't mean suggesting a newbie with no mechanical or electrical experience should shy away from a Chinese machine means I'm "Patriotic". It means I'm giving good advice to someone that doesn't have a tinkering background, which might save them a ton of time and trouble.

    It has zero to do with country of origin, it has all to do with the level of tinkering you'd like to do with your machine once you get it and the number of posts with new owners having all sorts of issues speaks for itself.

    I don't believe you'll see a single thread in the years this forum has been up where anyone had to have Epilog, Universal, Trotec, or GCC video tape them putting parts in a box for proof they did ship them. THAT'S the kind of thing some people have no desire to deal with. Nothing to do with country of origin, in my opinion.
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