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Thread: BLO, a continuation

  1. #1
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    BLO, a continuation

    Since they locked the previous thread as i evidently was writing to add to the post, i decided to start a new continuation. Not to argue or offer my approval or dis-approval of it's use, but to look at what causes the auto-ignition of oils to begin with. If you know why it happens and under what circumstances it is more likely to happen, then it's use if so desired, can at least be accomplished safely without fear of it's abilities to do so. Investigations of this go back to the thirties of last century, when chemist and others were determined to find out the reasons for this phenomena. Of course much has been gleaned since then both here and abroad, where many more house fires were being reported due to this than here. The following is one such report of which attention to the linseed oil is of the most concern even though any of this type are cover as well. I will follow with a summary of how i and others i know insure that this is never a problem when used.

    MAIN CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS

    The conclusions from the investigation may be summerized as follows:
    Wood coating oil products (wood oils) containing drying oils may along with other commonly used products cause self-ignition by oxidation of the product. Oxidation is the main chemical process causing self-ignition.
    Porous rags soaked in wood oils will only cause self-ignition and fire under special circumstances.
    This fact is also confirmed by the rather low number of registered fires each year due to self-ignition by chemical processes (approximately 10 fires in residential buildings and 10 fires in other buildings), compared to the very high consumption of products that are capable of causing this specific type of self-ignition in addition to wood oil products.


    A total of 33 experiments were carried out in order to find the self-heating and self-ignition tendency of different wood oils.
    Eight different wood oils, including boiled linseed oil, one penetration oil and one anti-rust oil, as well as two types of rags (i.e. cotton rags and waste wool or ‘Twist’ rags) was tested in two different experimental setups.
    Real spontaneous combustion was achieved in only 5 of 33 tests. Most of the tests resulted in self-heating and a sub-critical temperature development, i.e. the temperature increased to a maximum temperature, which was not high enough to cause self-ignition, followed by a temperature decrease down to the ambient temperature. The main reasons for this fact might be as follows:
    a) A too small size of the experimental setup (causing high transmission heat loss)
    b) A too high packing density of the rags (causing low ventilation (oxygen supply) and a corresponding low heat generation rates).

    The following main requirements must to be fulfilled for self-ignition of oil soaked rags to take place, provided that the oil is prone to cause self-ignition:

    • Insulation: The rags soaked with wood oil have to be located somewhere where heat loss by transmission is minimized. The rags have to be stored for example in a waste container of a certain minimum size filled with other waste with good insulation properties. However, under optimum ventilation conditions of the rags and elevated temperatures on hot summer days, the necessary size of the container to cause self-ignition may be strongly reduced.
    • Ambient temperature: The spontaneous heating is favoured by high ambient temperature. By increasing the ambient temperature from 24 °C to 44 °C in tests with ‘Faxe’ wooden floor oil a sub-critical temperature development was changed to a critical temperature development, which caused almost complete spontaneous combustion of the 3 x 1 m² rags.
    • Minimum ambient temperature: Based on the experiments carried out, it can be concluded that it is unlikely that ordinary wood oils in ordinary waste containers will self-ignite at temperatures below 10-15 °C.
    • Ventilation: If the ventilation rate is too high, the heat will dissipate. If the ventilation rate is too restricted, the oxidation and the heat generation will be too low. The ventilation rate is probably the single most critical factor for self-ignition. A too high packing density of the rags will restrict the ventilation of the rags. Restricted ventilation of the rags was probably the case more often than the opposite during the tests carried out. Not even 0.3 litre of the highly pyrophoric boiled linseed oil absorbed in a 3 m² cotton rag caused self-ignition at high packing density.
    • Amount of wood oil: It seems as if the needed amounts of boiled linseed oil and cotton rags to cause critical temperatures and self-ignition under normal indoor conditions have to be 0.075-0.1 litre evenly distributed in a 1 m² cotton fabric. For the wood oils the needed quantity was 0.3 litres. However, more optimal ventilation conditions, increased ambient temperature and increased size of the waste container may reduce the needed amount of wood oil.
    • Oil loading: If the oil loading (in l/m²) is larger than the optimum content, the temperature increase of the oil is restrained due to too much heat is used to increase the temperature of the excess oil. The optimum oil loading area densities seemed to be in the range 0.1-0.15 l/m².

    Waste wool or ‘Twist’ rags seemed to be more prone to self-ignition than cotton rags. This is indisputable due to the fact that the twist rags have a larger surface area than the cotton rags.
    Even though sub-critical temperature development was achieved in the far most of the 33 tests (primarily due to the small insulation thickness and too high packing density of the rags), the tendency to cause self-ignition may also be deduced from these tests. The most hazardous oils are those oils with the most rapid and highest temperature increase of the oils with sub-critical temperature development, provided the experimental conditions were equal.
    The oils tested can be divided into three classes with respect to fire hazard:

    • Class I - Extremely Hazardous oils:
      �� Linseed oil.
    • Class II - Hazardous Oils (ranked, i.e. the oil listed first is most hazardous):
      1. Faxe wood floor oil,
      2. Owatrol anti-rust oil,
      3. Trip trap wood floor oil and
      4. Butinox wood oil
    • Class III - Non-hazardous or less hazardous oils:
      1. Junker Rustic oil
      2. Wood oil from ‘Norsk Trepleie’
      3. Faxe oil care

    By examination of the comments made by the police investigators in statistics from DSB with respect to the cause of fire, Faxe wood oil and linseed oil were mentioned in 27 and 26 of 268 cases of ignition by chemical processes, while the other wood oils were hardly mentioned.
    Among the five wood oils that were characterized as hazardous, it was only Trip trap wood floor oil that did not have any safety marking or warning tag against the risk of self-ignition and fire.
    Recommendations for safe handling and disposal of equipment for wood oil.
    The following procedures are recommended:


    • Put application equipment in a container filled with water
    • Burn application equipment in a fire place or oven
    • Store the rags in an air tight metal container intended for fire hazardous waste in case of short time storage or transport.

    Final Conclusion
    On the basis of this experimental series it can be concluded that wood oil products do represent a risk of self-ignition and fire, even though self-ignition occurs only under certain circumstances. Due to the fact that these circumstances may occur rather frequently, especially indoors as well as outdoors in the summer time, we recommend a clearly visible warning label on such products. That is, with respect to the fire hazard and how to treat application equipment after use.

    Defects in the Statistics

    Processes causing spontaneous ignition
    Three processes can cause spontaneous combustion. These are:


    • physical
    • biological
    • chemical

    Erroneous determination of cause of fire
    Many fires in the statistical data from DSB (which are based on reports from investigation by the police) are obviously due to other causes than spontaneous combustion. The heat necessary to cause a self-ignition must come from the ignited matrial itself, not externally supplied heat.
    Examples of fires erronously categorized as self-ignition fires, were actually caused by:


    • sawing (friction)
    • sparks
    • hot ash with glows
    • combustible liquid on a hot surface (e.g. gasoline or diesel leakage on the exhaust manifold in a car or a bus)
    • oil in a deep-fryer or fat in a hot frying pan
    • ignituion of pyrophoric wood due to heat transfer from different fireplaces or heaters
    • burning-glass effect
    • textiles or paper in contact with a luminous lamp
    • dust in a television set
    • chimney fires

    Common for all these cases are that the necessary heat to cause the ignition are supplied externally to the ignited material.
    This indicates poor knowledge of spontane ignition. On the other hand, it is expected that several fires caused by spontane combustion never are revealed as such due to the same reason.

  2. #2
    Funny how they recommend burning the old rags. It's really not a bad solution, actually, but just wouldn't be acceptable today.

  3. #3
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    different countries, different rules John, lol I can remember as a kid everyone having a concrete block pit or big metal drum to burn the trash in and everybody burnt their leaves in the fall out by the streets. Times they are a changing.

  4. #4
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    Recommendations for applications and removal of wood oils. ::

    As i was taught back in the mid 60's:



    My family never used rags of any king to any degree when using oils, ours were mainly tung and linseed with occasional use of oiticica and dehydrated Castor oil among others.

    I was taught through apprenticeship to use a brush and flexible rubber squeegee to remove the excess. What very little was left if any, [depending on the surface of the wood, flat/curved/carved/ etc..] Was removed with cheesecloth and then washed out, when through using, with mineral spirits and then alcohol and then soapy water and clean water and hung to dry. This removed almost all of the oil from the cloth and could even be re-used for further jobs once dry. The idea was to not let the cloth to become saturated to begin with, thus removing the causes associated with auto-oxidation concerns.

    Here is the methods used then and through my career:

    Unlike most today and even then, who wipe or brush on and leave set for awhile and remove, Our treatment was a brush application that was continued till we saw areas of absorption that looked dry and added more oil to the brush and kept applying till this no longer happened. Once that point was reached then the excess oil was squeegeed off.

    With this, again little oil had to be cloth removed and never were their saturated rags of any kind in the shop. Wet rags on a clothesline? yep, but clean and virtually oil free. I personally have never seen a rag in any shop i had or worked in even smoke, yet alone catch fire with this method in place.

    The next day, the same rags could be used and continued to be used many times before finally discarding. Which also keeps cost under control. The brushes of course were cleaned in a like manner depending on whether they were natural bristle or synthetic.


    I also must be honest in the sense that we did little oil, maybe 3-5% percent of our overall work per year was of this nature. And when on my own, less than that. A few gun-stocks, tables and chairs, tall case clocks that already had such a coating or other such things, a few guitar necks of recent times, as well as samples for research.

    Never the less, since there are those who for whatever reasons choose to do so, i at least offer this proven method of doing such for your convenience.



  5. #5
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    Why not burn the rags? John, you say this is not acceptable today - why is that? Oxidation is a pretty general term and largely meaningless. What do I mean? We can't eliminate the oxygen can we? Oxidized steel = rust -- rust doesn't cause fires that I am aware of. Oxidized hydrogen - now there's a recipe for disaster isn't it? But, whats the end product of the oxidation reaction? 10 points to the first correct respondent. Lets not all go out trying to make our BLO rags burn. Just know that they can and its best not to keep them inside - put them outside to dry out completely and then dispose of (and hope and pray that the garbage truck doesn't start on fire on account of you).

  6. #6
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    Once dried, the combustion is a moot point.
    Scott

    Finishing is an 'Art & a Science'. Actually, it is a process. You must understand the properties and tendencies of the finish you are using. You must know the proper steps and techniques, then you must execute them properly.

  7. #7
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    when hydrogen is combusted you have water [H2O] [think internal combustion engines] now how can you seperate the two once more to return it to it's individual uncombined forms?

  8. #8
    I personally don't have any problem with burning rags. It's more that I'm sure there's some stupid regulation against that these days. I actually think that's a fine way to dispose of oily rags.

    edit: which brings something else up

    No matter what you do, no matter what you say and no matter what your opinion is, someone somewhere will take offense at it if not expressed in absolutely precise and clear language. If expressed in precise and clear language, someone else will take offense. Within minutes. LOL.
    Last edited by John Coloccia; 04-26-2012 at 11:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Coloccia View Post
    I personally don't have any problem with burning rags. It's more that I'm sure there's some stupid regulation against that these days. I actually think that's a fine way to dispose of oily rags.

    edit: which brings something else up

    No matter what you do, no matter what you say and no matter what your opinion is, someone somewhere will take offense at it if not expressed in absolutely precise and clear language. If expressed in precise and clear language, someone else will take offense. Within minutes. LOL.

    Is that a "to many cooks spoil the broth" statement? lol. There is no forum I've ever been on or seen that this doesn't hold true, part of human nature. I try not to respond to others answers or opinions unless directed to me personally, and then if it's argumentative i don't respond at all. Were all entitled to our opinions, that said, there are other bits of information not based on opinions but from personal use and study of the chemistry, this is worth more than opinions i believe and worthy of posting if one knows such.

    Commenting on your personal likes or dislikes of products or methods, with no formal information as to why you feel such, is a personal opinion, not a factual statement. Saying you have used it and found it to be lacking good finishing characteristics and listing them so others can [by the same determinations as you] find it to be true or incorrect, gives weight or in turn negative findings to your offerings, this is a better way of knowing what is best in given situations. The science of decorative and protective coatings and allied techniques and materials we use daily, would still be in it's infancy if it were based only on opinions instead of investigative research that could be duplicated by all through such measures. It's great to know and have hands on experience in this field, without it, all the science would be naught. But with science, you not only have the "hows" but the "why's" behind them, this makes for the best of both worlds.

  10. #10
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    A product I like using is Velvit Oil. It is basically oil and varnish mixed together although I'm not sure which product dominates. Anyway, the squeegee idea is pretty cool to remove excess and to save a bit o' product. I use those blue shop paper towels to wipe down finishes and then lay them out on the garage floor to dry before tossing them.
    Wood: a fickle medium....

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  11. #11
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    Not a bad product Chris, oil modified urethane, 52% MSprts. - 48% solids. "oil modified" reffers to the oil bieng reacted into an alkyd resin, so you have a product with formal bonds and not just a mix of substances like the standard 1-1-1- mixes many others use. At least it's sound chemistry.

  12. #12
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    Hmmm, so it isn't actually "varnish" then, Sheldon? It does produce a nice finish and is easy to repair or rejuvenate...both pluses in my book.
    Wood: a fickle medium....

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    According to Bob Flexner, Velvit oil is actually a wiping varnish. Take that for what it's worth.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Padilla View Post
    Hmmm, so it isn't actually "varnish" then, Sheldon? It does produce a nice finish and is easy to repair or rejuvenate...both pluses in my book.
    Quite the contrary Chris, it is most definitely an alkyd/urethane coating, i was referring to others elsewhere believing that home brews like 1 part polyurethane [another true varnish] mixed with 1 part linseed or tung oil, and thinned with 1 part mineral spirits, creates some type of coating that is better or comparable to a stand alone varnish like velvit/4hr. rockhard/McCloskey spar/etc. There are no formal chemical bonds in such mixtures to allow such benefits as a well design varnish has, No matter how simple a true varnish may be. With the home brews, All you have is a mix of extra oil with an already proven formulated stand alone varnish, thinned with more diluent. That is not much better than making a cup of coffee and adding cream and sugar, as to a comparison, meaning all that is being accomplished in either, is a weakening of the main and most important component. Varnish doesn't need any help being a better product in the sense of adding other components that don't enhance the varnishes already over all qualities, to any degree, and neither added oil or diluent do so in any way. All you have in the end is a mixture, not a chemically united coating. Really the extras only act as contaminates to an already viable coating. Better to apply the oil to the wood if so desired and let it dry, then coat with the varnish for best all around protection.

    Are there any advantages to such a mixture? well, yes, it makes for an easy to apply mixture for almost anyone to be able to use without having to worry about runs or sags or brush marks/ fish eyes/ or obtaining a thick look or other such things, thus it's popularity, when such is needed or desired. But it's drawbacks as compared to a true coating, leaves no room for any to say it's as good or better than a proven film forming coating of like resin formulation without such additions are.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben searight View Post
    According to Bob Flexner, Velvit oil is actually a wiping varnish. Take that for what it's worth.
    It's worth alot Ben, I agree though it can also be used as a brushing or spray also. Especially if used as packaged.

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