BLO, a continuation

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> "oil modified" reffers to the oil bieng reacted into an alkyd resin,

That's also how oil based varnish is made. The Velvit Oil though, is really an oil/varnish mixture. The "solids" are the oil based varnish and the added linseed oil.

[sheldon pettit]

>>>> "oil modified" reffers to the oil bieng reacted into an alkyd resin,

That's also how oil based varnish is made. The Velvit Oil though, is really an oil/varnish mixture. The "solids" are the oil based varnish and the added linseed oil.

Thanks Howie, can you please give the source on this?

Normally the use of "modified" in the field of coatings chemistry denotes a chemical reaction in which "some" or all of the substituent radicals of a high polymer such as polyurethane, are replaced by other chemical entities, resulting in a marked change in one or more properties of the polymer without destroying it's structural identity? This would be the case if tung or linseed or other drying, [or even non-drying] oil, was acted upon to give an alkyd resin and be formally chemically bonded to the isocyanate

Under normal circumstances it would be wrong to call an end product a modified resin product unless such were the case? If your correct, and I'm not saying your not, there are such animals out there that can be combined chemically at ambient temps., then it should be re-labeled and sold as a urethane oil blend, not an oil "modified" product.

[Bob Wingard]

I agree wholeheartedly that the addition of ANY substance without a chemical change/reaction is nothing more than a mixture or blend of the substances involved. This means that they will each retain their individual properties, and will attempt to separate out, given the chance. The one point I would take exception to is the use of thinner in order to alter the physical property of varnish, allowing for a broader choice of application mediums. True ... the addition of thinner is still nothing more than a mixture, and no chemical change has taken place, it will reduce the viscosity of the varnish, and also affect it's surface tension, allowing it to seep more deeply into the pores of a surface, letting it drive out and displace any air that might otherwise be trapped in there. This simple change in physical properties has, on many occasions allowed me to develop beautiful finishes by building a much higher count of layers as opposed to one to three layers of factory prepared varnish used as bought from the can.

The solvent still evaporates, leaving behind the same varnish that was originally in the can, but it has affected the application of it in a very positive way ... much in the same way one would add thinner to lacquer in an attempt to modify it to a state where it would properly flow & atomize from a spray gun, yet no chemical change to the lacquer itself.

Neither of these scenarios bastardize the original finish as would be the case with the addition of various oils/waxes/etc. with each element retaining it's original identity and impeding the ability of the others to properly perform their duties

I wonder ... if someone advocating mixing grout with bleach instead of water, and made wild statements all over every forum he could find, claiming the bleach would prevent mold & mildew from ever forming on his grout ... how many folks would blindly try it out ??? The point being, if it were THAT simple and effective, don't you think some hot shot chemist or product developer at the grout company would have tried it ... AND ... maybe they did, and found it worthless at best and dangerous/deadly at worst.

[sheldon pettit]

I agree wholeheartedly that the addition of ANY substance without a chemical change/reaction is nothing more than a mixture or blend of the substances involved. This means that they will each retain their individual properties, and will attempt to separate out, given the chance. The one point I would take exception to is the use of thinner in order to alter the physical property of varnish, allowing for a broader choice of application mediums. True ... the addition of thinner is still nothing more than a mixture, and no chemical change has taken place, it will reduce the viscosity of the varnish, and also affect it's surface tension, allowing it to seep more deeply into the pores of a surface, letting it drive out and displace any air that might otherwise be trapped in there. This simple change in physical properties has, on many occasions allowed me to develop beautiful finishes by building a much higher count of layers as opposed to one to three layers of factory prepared varnish used as bought from the can.

The solvent still evaporates, leaving behind the same varnish that was originally in the can, but it has affected the application of it in a very positive way ... much in the same way one would add thinner to lacquer in an attempt to modify it to a state where it would properly flow & atomize from a spray gun, yet no chemical change to the lacquer itself.

Neither of these scenarios bastardize the original finish as would be the case with the addition of various oils/waxes/etc. with each element retaining it's original identity and impeding the ability of the others to properly perform their duties

I wonder ... if someone advocating mixing grout with bleach instead of water, and made wild statements all over every forum he could find, claiming the bleach would prevent mold & mildew from ever forming on his grout ... how many folks would blindly try it out ??? The point being, if it were THAT simple and effective, don't you think some hot shot chemist or product developer at the grout company would have tried it ... AND ... maybe they did, and found it worthless at best and dangerous/deadly at worst.

LOL, i can understand your disagreement with thinning Mr. Wingard, It was not my intention to obstruct or dismiss it's use. most already know what you state and i also agree as to thinning being necessary in most cases, especially a first coat. Coating always flow best when the viscosity is proper as well as provide better penetration when applied to an absorbent surface such as wood, My comments on being an Adulterant were merely in making a point of neither oil or diluent or any other materials that have/had/ no formal chemical bonds being necessary or helping in any way to give the primary coating formula better properties. I apologize for any confusion this may have caused anyone and will be more succinct in the future on my post ok?

Sincerely,

S P

[Bob Wingard]

No problem ... no offense taken ... I was merely agreeing with MOST of what I thought you were saying, and stating my reason(s) for disagreement with a small portion of it ... not that anyone cares, but, I do believe that puts us in total agreement ... at least on this subject !!! !!!

[sheldon pettit]

No problem ... no offense taken ... I was merely agreeing with MOST of what I thought you were saying, and stating my reason(s) for disagreement with a small portion of it ... not that anyone cares, but, I do believe that puts us in total agreement ... at least on this subject !!! !!!

LOL, ok then we won't talk politics or religion deal?

[Bob Wingard]

Deal .

[sheldon pettit]

Howie, just to insure of my comments as to it being an oil "modified" coating, i talked with Leonard at velvit, in looking up the original formula in 1972, it states that Velvit oil is most definitely a "urethane modified soy based alkyd". I'm not sure who your sources are for your comment, but if this is from MD or fine wood working or others, then you should see to it's correction so as to not mis-inform other's OK? Your more than welcome to check this out also if you have any doubts.

http://www.velvitproducts.com/details_velvitoil.html ask to speak with Leonard if possible, the lady at the desk is helpful but not when it comes to the chemistry.

[glenn bradley]

I use a fair amount of oils. I have a 3 gallon lidded bucket that I put a few inches of water in. I toss the rags into the bucket and pop the lid back on as I go about my business. At the end of the session i lay them out or drape them over the masonry outside the side door to the shop. Once dry (and we're talkin' the next day or more) , they go in the trash.

I saw videos long ago of rags wet with BLO self-igniting in a coffee can as they cured and have never forgotten it.

[sheldon pettit]

I use a fair amount of oils. I have a 3 gallon lidded bucket that I put a few inches of water in. I toss the rags into the bucket and pop the lid back on as I go about my business. At the end of the session i lay them out or drape them over the masonry outside the side door to the shop. Once dry (and we're talkin' the next day or more) , they go in the trash.

I saw videos long ago of rags wet with BLO self-igniting in a coffee can as they cured and have never forgotten it.

Good for you Glenn,

I think the strangest story i personally know was when i went to work for Mueller's in grand rapids and was told they had had an oil rag fire several months before i got there. The thing was that they had a 55 gallon drum full of water and placed the rags in religiously and capped it tight at the end of each day. And it still caught on fire, the only thing i could figure as in my article it had to have been do to the right levels of saturation heat build/oxidation/ etc.. Even the fire people couldn't explain it. still kind of bugs me how it happened?

[Pat Barry]

Isn't that the whole point John? To have a conversation?. Not just listen, but respond as well? It doesn't always have to do with taking offense. Sometimes it just has to do with clarifying and understanding.