Blotches with stain on cherry

[Chris Barnett]

After applying oil type stain with a rag and drying, a significant amount of blotches appeared on the surface. The surface has no endgrain so am confused why this would happen. I sanded and scraped the stained surface in hopes of solving the problem and reapplying stain without the blotches, but thought I best ask first. This problem has not occured with walnut but did not think cherry would be so bad. The stain is usually applied directly to the dry wood then successive coats of tung oil poly (usually ZAR in most cases) or similar finish is used. I have heard/read that shellac or similar pore sealer is used to prevent blotches but am concerned that the grain patterns would be hidden. Any thoughts on this....alternatives or corrections on applying the stain?

[David Hawxhurst]

cherry is one of those woods that are prone to blotching. my understanding is that you should dye cherry not stain it. i believe you're correct that a light seal coat of shellac would help prevent blotching. charles neil makes a blotch preventing sealer thats supposed to be pretty good. i personally don't stain or dye cherry i like natural cherry.

[glenn bradley]

As David says; not confusing at all. Cherry, Maple, Birch and others can be blotch prone. Dye has been my solution when a colorant is required. If an oil is requested, sealers can help. I have cherry pieces that I have oiled, colored or just shellaced. After a year or so, the plain shellac coloring is much better looking IMHO as it actually shows the darkening cherry. Some people want their cherry really-red or cinnamon-brown or whatever. Around here, I would use a less expensive material with a similar character (birch or alder) for that purpose ;-)

[Prashun Patel]

I agree with both these guys. *If you don't have access to a dye based stain (vs yr pigment based stain) then you can mitigate blotching by wiping a quick coat of 1-1.5# shellac, like Zinsser Sealcoat. *This will seal some of the more porous parts. *Beware, though, that this comes at a price: your stain will not penetrate as deeply as previously, so your color may not be as dark.

Know that cherry will over time darken to a deep rust color by itself. *Most coloring is done on cherry as a shortcut to that.*

If you are not concerned with obscuring the grain, then you can seal the wood with shellac as above and then use a gel stain. *A gel stain is *almost* like a paint; it stays closer to the surface. *As such it does a little better job of achieving dark color on sealed wood vis-a-vis a stain that requires penetration. *But the result can be that the wood loses some of its grain appeal, curl, and depth. *This may or may not be important.

In the end, the best thing to do is test...

[Bob Turkovich]

The article "Blotch-Free Cherry" in the October 2008 issue of Fine Woodworking pretty much agrees with Prashun. They recommend a washcoat of 50/50 dewaxed shellac/denatured alcohol (I think that gets you to a 1# cut ) followed by a light sanding of 320 grit. While this helped with oil stain they recommended if you color, use gel stain (as noted above) or a tinted oil or water-based dye (still need to washcoat.)

My limited experience with cherry has been to match existing pieces of furniture, hence I've used the washcoat/gel stain with some resulting loss of apparent grain but have been blotch-free.

I think you can access the article through Fine Woodworking's website by signing uo for a free 14 day trial.

[Chris Padilla]

The blotching occurs due to the changes in the grain of the wood such that stain absorbs more in various spots versus others where it does not. You can scrape and plane butter-smooth all you want but it won't change the nature of the wood.

The seal coat folks describe above serves to fill the pores of the wood a bit so that less stain is absorbed in those troubling spots.

If you want even color and somewhat slight gain hiding, you can simply seal the wood with shellac and then experiment with adding dye to successive coats of shellac to get the color you are going for. Start light and keep spraying coats of colored shellac until you get the match you are looking. This can be a quite painful and laborious process. I once needed to make a simple maple shelf look like a cherry shelf in a china cabinet purchased from Ethan Allen. I sprayed many coats of dyed shellac until I hit the correct color. It took some time and many experiments with different dye (Trans Tint) but I eventually nailed it. The wife was quite impressed at the end. I then put the secret formula in the vault in case I need to do this again in the future since we have a few pieces of furniture like this.

[Chris Barnett]

Thanks guys....what I read is what I was afraid I would read...that there is no really great solution (other than staying with walnut). Yes, the bloches appear as though there are spots of end grain [could there possibly be?] which soak up more stain as is mentioned above. My misconception was that cherry was more dense than it apparently is...had thought it was more like walnut, with which I have not had such problems. With the stain, I was able to scrape and sand and scrape to remove the color added, but might not have been so successful with a sealer so I must proceed cautiously.

I have seen cherry in furniture that exhibited beautiful patterns, and I expect such wood was just typical cherry with some nice grain. They must have a closely guarded secret. A sealer, if I understand correctly, would tend to hide those patterns, whereas not using a sealer would allow the bloches to occur. Think I need to pursue with a light seal coat, then try the stain again, though I do not want the appearance that the stain is what one sees rather than the wood itself. Had not the intended receiver indicated a desire for a dark cherry color (yes think Ethan Allen dark ) I simply would apply my many finish coats without a stain....thus adopting my principle that it's morally wrong and perhaps even sadistic to stain walnut .
Again, thank you all for your thoughts....

[sheldon pettit]

Thanks guys....what I read is what I was afraid I would read...that there is no really great solution (other than staying with walnut). Yes, the bloches appear as though there are spots of end grain [could there possibly be?] which soak up more stain as is mentioned above. My misconception was that cherry was more dense than it apparently is...had thought it was more like walnut, with which I have not had such problems. With the stain, I was able to scrape and sand and scrape to remove the color added, but might not have been so successful with a sealer so I must proceed cautiously.

I have seen cherry in furniture that exhibited beautiful patterns, and I expect such wood was just typical cherry with some nice grain. They must have a closely guarded secret. A sealer, if I understand correctly, would tend to hide those patterns, whereas not using a sealer would allow the bloches to occur. Think I need to pursue with a light seal coat, then try the stain again, though I do not want the appearance that the stain is what one sees rather than the wood itself. Had not the intended receiver indicated a desire for a dark cherry color (yes think Ethan Allen dark ) I simply would apply my many finish coats without a stain....thus adopting my principle that it's morally wrong and perhaps even sadistic to stain walnut .
Again, thank you all for your thoughts....

Hi Chris,,

Lot of good info here, that said, what your experiencing could be as your noting in the sense of figured cherry and other figured woods can have both dark and light areas due to interlocking grain that takes the stain darker than the non figured face grain does, think burls, ribbon, waves, etc.. I'm not saying this is the case, but if so then that is not an objectionable thing in fact wood of such character usually cost more than the run of the mill quarter sawn or flat-cut types.

What would be of most value at this point would be to post some pictures of the wood with stain on it, or at least wet down with water/alcohol/mineral spirits, so that all would be able to view and comment as to what is really going on as to your problem, if it is one, ok? Very hard to determine a proper procedure, solution or schedule for handling such, by verbal description alone. Normally blotching shows up a dark area that is undefined as to having natural placement on the surface. Meaning it follows no natural pattern in the wood, the grain does not flow up to it or gently flow around it with a natural look to it. It's just a dark spot caused by softer wood being able to soak up the color deeper into the wood than the surrounding harder/denser wood is able to.

[Bob Turkovich]

Had not the intended receiver indicated a desire for a dark cherry color (yes think Ethan Allen dark ) I simply would apply my many finish coats without a stain....thus adopting my principle that it's morally wrong and perhaps even sadistic to stain walnut .
....

Referencing that same Fine Woodworking article, going with just a clear finish does not eliminate the potential for blotching. They recommend a.) sanding to 400 grit, b.) using a water-based conditioner or c.) using the shellac wash coat. In any case, they suggested pre-wiping with alcohol (as Sheldon suggests) to get an indication of how severe the blotching could be on your work. Of course, the article is four years old and there may be technique advancements that other Creekers can comment on.

My only personal experience with clear finish on cherry was just this week. I was visiting an old friend who was extolling the virtues of scraping (not sanding) followed by wipe-on Waterlox (no sealer). As he was demonstrating - sure enough - the blotches started showing through the Waterlox.... Since I was "borrowing" use of his 8" jointer, I kept my comments to a minimum.

[sheldon pettit]

Referencing that same Fine Woodworking article, going with just a clear finish does not eliminate the potential for blotching. They recommend a.) sanding to 400 grit, b.) using a water-based conditioner or c.) using the shellac wash coat. In any case, they suggested pre-wiping with alcohol (as Sheldon suggests) to get an indication of how severe the blotching could be on your work. Of course, the article is four years old and there may be technique advancements that other Creekers can comment on.

My only personal experience with clear finish on cherry was just this week. I was visiting an old friend who was extolling the virtues of scraping (not sanding) followed by wipe-on Waterlox (no sealer). As he was demonstrating - sure enough - the blotches started showing through the Waterlox.... Since I was "borrowing" use of his 8" jointer, I kept my comments to a minimum.

LOL, thanks for that Bob, I just went through another site where someone was told or had read that using a cut piece of glass like a scraper would do the same, unfortunately with like results. Personally blotch does not bother me unless it is extremely bad, i love to bring out all the character a wood has to offer otherwise. Back when i started again unless it was severe even our clientele never made reference to the over all look of anything we finished, it was not till the late sixties and into the seventies that dealing with architects and designers who were demanding total uniformity that this entered the scene in a big way. most of today's blotching is due to use of faster growing smaller trees harvested, and the heavy increase in rotary cutting of veneers as to it enlarging scope of things of this nature. Since the factories excel at this also as to lessening of blotch, [not that they completely hide it either], Everyone else, especially those doing there own work want like results that they see at furniture stores or even home depot ot Loews etc.,

This in-turn is due to mudwax, Whatco?/ and others that sell products that do a wonderful job bringing all the possible blotchiness that exist, out of the wood,lol. Of course then they can make a new product to sell to control that which their product causes, and on and on, lol.

Factory methods normally use this method, they apply a very fast dry uniforming dye color that dries almost immediately upon hitting the surface of the wood, [very minimal penetration] - then apply a very fast drying coat of clear with the same results. Is the blotch visible? Yes, but compared to wetting it out with dye and putting on a thicker slower drying clear, it is remarkably lighter, Then, any further color work they employ is either a wipe on wipe off pigment glaze, which may be brushed out also if needs be, and resealed and if still necessary, a toner is applied to even every thing out. With the 2nd step you are also able to wipe more color off of the blotch keeping it lighter while leaving the non blotched areas alone, [takes a deft touch, but not long to learn] - If the next toning coat is handled in a similar manner, by gun, the same is achieved and the final look is very consistent, meaning little visible blotch.


This can happen with some hardwoods also, but is usually less than veneers by far. Proper prep normally takes care of the hardwood issues, but even then using the same factory procedures, sure doesn't hurt. There are other ways to control this also but most have to do with applying a pigmented toner to the bare wood in a translucent manner that will not allow it to show either. Some times called a bleach coat or toner coat etc..

Bleaching is another way i handle cherry especially when complaints of blotchiness, or even darkening, become, or are an issue. Once the natural color and surface are lightened, true uniformity can be achieved that will give lasting color retention without further darkening. This of course i don't recommend for anyone who does not know how to turn a bleached surface by use of pigments and dyes and a good artistic eye and techniques, back to a natural looking wood color to begin with.