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Thread: cap iron adjustments ( like in the japanese video ) wont let my LN blade protrude....

  1. #46
    The controlling factor in clogging in the plane isn't necessarily how closely you set the cap iron, it's the tightness of the mouth and the lack of clearance that can create (as in, it's better if the iron isn't up laser tight against the back of the mouth). Some later and lower quality wooden planes just aren't going to tolerate setting their cap iron correctly no matter the setting, I don't know if they expected craftsmen to finish the job of the planemaker back then because of the competition driving down the plane costs (and quality).

    I haven't found it too productive to worry that much about the angle, and whatever the bailey chipbreaker stock setting is on a millers falls, that's the best tearout reduction I've gotten and also the nicest feel. I could be underestimating the angle that the chip hits that curved chipbreaker, but I figured it's probably closer to 50 than 80, maybe it's in the middle. I tried 80 with a japanese plane, where having the extra relief is useful (shooting in theory for the .3 setting vs. the .1). It's not as quick to set the double iron when it's retained by a pin and not attached to the iron, and the edge isn't visible. I still just found it easier to use a western plane and got better surface quality with the wester plane in anything where the planes would create tearout without the cap iron set closely.

    I wonder what results they would've gotten if they shot the difference in distance and used an angle slightly above 50. I think that's a better setting, and it's easier to set and not have to fiddle with. It will still prevent tearout if you accidentally take too deep of a cut.

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    It could likely be done with a mirror temporarily mounted on the plane with a cell phone camera.

    As my comment in another thread and a book page from 1892 posted by Jason (hope that is the correct credit given) indicate, it isn't so much the visual evidence as it is a practice that seems to have been working for those who take the time to try it and find the sweet spot.

    jtk
    Sweet spot?! That sounds like some mumbo jumbo from 19th century woodworking savages. Seriously though, I'm just curious if anyone has tried out the bevel angles and distances used by Kawai and Kato within a plane body, namley, using real-world sets of conditions. The absence of a plane body seems to me to be a significant variable left out of the equation.

    By the way, I like the cell phone camera idea.
    Last edited by Phillip Dejardin; 12-19-2012 at 5:41 PM.

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by David Weaver View Post
    The controlling factor in clogging in the plane isn't necessarily how closely you set the cap iron, it's the tightness of the mouth and the lack of clearance that can create (as in, it's better if the iron isn't up laser tight against the back of the mouth).
    Agreed, but I interpreted their focus on the smoothness of shavings as a proxy of sorts for exactly that. They didn't have the benefit of a tight or loose mouth in their experiment, which is why I'm curious about what the results would be when that factor is included. Not that any of this would make a differences in a practical sense. It's just interesting.

  4. #49
    I did. I think between those two suggested settings is optimal. That's the "sweet spot". Where the chip only gets influenced if it's a little thicker. Those thicker cuts are usually the ones that would cause tearout.

  5. #50
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    Rather than chopping up a plane, what about using something like a #10 or it's brethren? ( If someone wants to buy me a nice 10 1/2 or 10 1/4 I'll gladly shoot the video. )
    " Be willing to make mistakes in your basements, garages, apartments and palaces. I have made many. Your first attempts may be poor. They will not be futile. " - M.S. Bickford, Mouldings In Practice

  6. #51
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    I'm gonna dust off this old thread.... Because - well - basically, between moving to a new city and traveling for work on the railroad constantly and being home with my wife and daughter - I had to take a bit of a hiatus from my tools for a while.... but recently I have been able to start aggravating the inventory of wood in my possession. First, I cant say how great the Goldenrod has worked ( I got a mention on last week's wood talk podcast ). My tools have been kept in excellent condition in my cabinet.

    I bought the LAJ and the LAS from LN a while back and have been working with them mostly to truly get a awareness of this set up.... and I do like it, but I honestly like my bevel downs a bit better, so I pulled the Five and a Half out and started getting re acquainted with it.

    So - on to this issue.... I tried to do a little searching of the forum to see if LN may have been made aware of this and maybe some one has gotten either a replacement chip breaker or some other solution. I guess after the holiday I will email them if there is something that can be worked out... If anybody knows any thing relevant, I would appreciate the input.

  7. #52
    IIRC, LN's stance is that their planes are designed to achieve performance via high angle frogs, setting chipbreakers close is a fad, their chipbreaker is superior in every way to Leonard Bailey's design, don't bother us with silly talk about japanese videos, just shut up and buy a high angle frog.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by John A. Callaway View Post
    I'm gonna dust off this old thread.... Because - well - basically, between moving to a new city and traveling for work on the railroad constantly and being home with my wife and daughter - I had to take a bit of a hiatus from my tools for a while.... but recently I have been able to start aggravating the inventory of wood in my possession. First, I cant say how great the Goldenrod has worked ( I got a mention on last week's wood talk podcast ). My tools have been kept in excellent condition in my cabinet.

    I bought the LAJ and the LAS from LN a while back and have been working with them mostly to truly get a awareness of this set up.... and I do like it, but I honestly like my bevel downs a bit better, so I pulled the Five and a Half out and started getting re acquainted with it.

    So - on to this issue.... I tried to do a little searching of the forum to see if LN may have been made aware of this and maybe some one has gotten either a replacement chip breaker or some other solution. I guess after the holiday I will email them if there is something that can be worked out... If anybody knows any thing relevant, I would appreciate the input.
    Mine does this, and so I've had to compensate by tightening the mouth more than I prefer. I keep the chip breaker about .010" on the jointer plane...no tear out.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  9. #54
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    I was about to post this and luckily saw this old thread.

    The issue is with the LN chipbreaker having the oval hole too close to the leading edge of the chipbreaker. I compared it to a stock stanley (about 3/16" difference). This forces you to have a large spacing, at least on my set up, Hock iron on type 8 stanley #8 with, of course, a lie Nielsen chipbreaker. My blade has to be about 1/8" in front of the chipbreaker edge if I want any blade to stick out before the adjustment nut falls off. Not sure if this is the case if I had a full LN set up (plane). The blade and it's wear has no effect on this, it is solely a cap iron/frog issue.

    Does anyone have either a hock or a Lee Valley aftermarket chipbreaker they would kindly measure (leading edge to slot)


    Pedro

    Edit: I guess if I ask for measurements the least I could do is measure mine.

    LN 2-5/8" cap iron, distance to slot 3-13/16"
    Stanley 2-5/8" cap iron, distance to slot 4"
    LN 2" cap iron, distance to slot 3-1/2"
    Hock 2" cap iron, distance to slot 3-5/8"
    Last edited by Pedro Reyes; 05-25-2015 at 4:44 PM. Reason: Add details

  10. #55
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    If anyone cares here is some information from an old Stanley catalog circa 1953:

    Picture 2.jpg

    Picture 3.jpg

    It would seem LN missed an important piece of the puzzle when they made planes in the old Stanley style.

    It was missed by many of us who have used our planes for years without looking through an out of print catalog for a bit of instruction.

    Hopefully they can see their way to making a little change to their product line.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by bridger berdel View Post
    IIRC, LN's stance is that their planes are designed to achieve performance via high angle frogs, setting chipbreakers close is a fad, their chipbreaker is superior in every way to Leonard Bailey's design, don't bother us with silly talk about japanese videos, just shut up and buy a high angle frog.
    To add to my previous comments. I own several LN products, all of them superb. I only own two of their bench planes (62 not counting as one, and bevel up anyway), a #2 & a #4-1/2. In their defense I can say that neither of them have this issue, the adjusting screw is about mid point even with the cap iron extremely close. I also have a Stanley #5 (type 9) which also works with the LN chipbreaker, it has only been my #8 type 8 (different frog from type 9) which has an issue, even at over 1/16".

    In summary, a LN chipbreaker on a LN plane can be adjusted half an Armstrong ;-) behind the cutting edge and not have issues with the adjusting nut.

    Opens some other questions... Did the distance from edge to slot (in chipbreakers) change over time?

    Pedro

  12. #57
    Time for a recal.

  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    If anyone cares here is some information from an old Stanley catalog circa 1953:

    Picture 2.jpg

    Picture 3.jpg

    It would seem LN missed an important piece of the puzzle when they made planes in the old Stanley style.

    It was missed by many of us who have used our planes for years without looking through an out of print catalog for a bit of instruction.

    Hopefully they can see their way to making a little change to their product line.

    jtk
    Lots of people knew about this stuff. When I first mentioned the double iron on a forum in 2005, I got this response:

    The verdict is pretty much "in" on chip breakers.
    Chip breakers are simply a way of keep the blade (and consequently edge) held firmly, and they also help the shaving "clear" the plane.
    Despite loads of books and "the old guys" telling you different, in some cases with diagrams :-)

    One well known tool monger said you could not trust Holtzapffel (1846) or Nicholson (1812) because they were "tool mongers"

    The problem was that people thought they knew better, not that information was not available.

  14. #59
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    I am not surprised at their attitude.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Mickley View Post
    Lots of people knew about this stuff.

    [edited for brevity]

    The problem was that people thought they knew better, not that information was not available.
    This seems to be a recurring theme in the history of human existence.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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